After Show: Event ROI, Relationship Capital & Did She Actually Cancel Christmas?

[00:00:07] Hey everybody, welcome back to Event About It, the Dynamic Dialogue After Show. I'm your host, Megan Martin. I'm here today with Christine Martin, also known as my mom. For anyone just joining us in the after show, we owe you a quick introduction. Christine Martin started her career at Host Marriott Headquarters. She spent the last 30 plus years building a career in tax and is now a senior solutions consultant at Avalara. She's a regular speaker at industry conferences and company events.

[00:00:37] She's a road warrior with more conferences and miles than most event pros I know. All right, so let's get into it. Let's get into it. So we talked a little bit on the main episode about the daycare cover photo story. If you want to hear more about that, check out the main episode. But now I want to talk more about everything that kind of came after that and the career you've watched me build in industry that you've spent a lot of time in. So first question, what's going on?

[00:01:07] When did you realize I'd actually like picked up the event trade and what's going to be doing in there? Was there like a specific moment or an event we went to where you were like, she's going to do this? I think when you were in college and I don't remember how you ended up with the sport group in Columbus, Georgia, where you did all that stuff. But to me, it's when it's kind of when the worlds collided that first time where your sister was at the state competition and you got to be on the floor. Yeah.

[00:01:37] And to me, I was like, oh my God, look at this. Both of my kids are on the floor for very different reasons. And you were so passionate about all of that. Yeah, it was fun.

[00:01:46] So I got to see you do all kinds of really cool things that you loved. And then you went to the Galleria and I literally had no idea how physically draining it was to be an event person. And I started to see that from you, but still I saw that love of events through you too. But I really saw it when you were in college participating with work with all of these sports things. And to me, one of the coolest things was just seeing you down there with your sister.

[00:02:14] Yeah, that was a lot of fun. So for those, I started my career in college interning with a sports council. So the sports side of the convention and visitors bureau and in Columbus, Georgia, and we hosted a lot of state tournaments. And so one year, my sister was a competitive cheerleader. She got to go to state championships. I think actually won the year that I was working there. I can't remember. It was either a year before year. I was there somewhere around there.

[00:02:39] So that was really fun to get to see like her whole team and my old classmates were coaching and things. So that was, that was a fun moment. Okay. So what did you watch me get wrong about events that you maybe wanted to step in and help with? I don't know if you got any, I don't think I ever saw you get anything wrong about events, but I remember when you graduated college and you were like, I'm going to go get my master's. And I was like, great. What are you going to get your master's in? And you were like public administration. I'm like, what do you do with that?

[00:03:09] And you're like work for nonprofits. And I was like, Oh, so make no money. But I don't think I ever saw you do anything, get anything wrong about the event space. I think you have always been, I think there's always been this curiosity to you, even from the time that you were a little kid. And I think that curiosity has just kind of made you as successful as you are.

[00:03:31] Oh, well, thank you. And yes, I got my master's degree in public administration because I loved the private public partnership that was the funding of the Galleria and what it did for the communities.

[00:03:44] And I got to see all these different association events come through the Galleria when I was working as a CSM. And so I was just fascinated by that. I was like, all right, how do I go do more of that? And I now realize I should have specified that I wanted to work for a not for profit, not a nonprofit. Well, the C6s, not the C3s of the world. So, but I mean, what's interesting is when you started at college, you were going to be a pharmacist. Yeah. And that lasted all of about three months. It was way too much school.

[00:04:14] Yeah. I don't like chemistry that much. Yeah. Way too much school. And then you were going to be a teacher. And dad told me the same thing. Do you want to actually make money for the rest of your life? Well, I think you would have been a great teacher. Yeah. I mean, I think you do an awful lot of education. I mean, through this podcast and other things. And to me, one of the cool things that you did was teaching math in Belize. And I remember a picture of chickens walking in the classroom. And then you came back from that and you were like, yeah, I don't want to be a teacher. And you were like, I'm going to change my degree to communications.

[00:04:42] And again, that same question was, what are you going to do with that? And here we are in this communication mode. So now it's not just like individual communication. This is mass communication that you're doing. It is. Which then you bring in this public administration piece. So I can't say that I've seen you do anything wrong. You've done all the right things. Well, and I think I realized coming home after studying abroad and teaching for a summer,

[00:05:07] like I didn't want to teach children, I think was really the, in hindsight, it's 2020. You know, like I just didn't want to teach kids. But like I taught at university. I was a professor for a year when I lived in Denver. Would love to go back and teach again, teaching through the podcast. So I think the desire to teach doesn't mean a classroom anymore. Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I never wanted to teach, but I end up teaching every single day. Yeah.

[00:05:36] I always knew I was going to do something in the accounting world. And here I am teaching this love of sales and use tax. Well, why did you think you would always end up in accounting? Because that's what your mom does? That is what grandma does. Yeah. I mean, I was immersed in accounting talk all the time. So I knew it just intuitively, just from conversations growing up. Well, I think a lot of, I was reading a book recently where I think it was some statistic,

[00:06:03] like 70 or 80% of children end up just either in a job that their parents always wanted to do and never did. Like I've always wanted to learn piano. So you're going to take piano lessons or end up in the same career as their parents. Cause that's just what they're exposed to. Interesting. Which is ironic. When I read that, I was thinking about our family and how none of us work in tax. Like the three of us have like the most diverse jobs. Right. Well, I mean, it's kind of like sports, right? I played soccer. Yeah, none of us.

[00:06:32] None of you had an interest whatsoever in soccer. I think I played one season. It was like, nope, not doing this. Never again. Not playing this sport again. Okay. What's the most useful thing I learned from watching you that I'd never gotten from a real job? I have an example. I know one thing I've learned from you that no one else has ever taught me. Um, I think I remember telling you this once and you've actually repeated it back to me that if you look good, you feel good and you're more confident.

[00:06:59] And to me, like I work from home whenever I'm home, I work from home and I have this normal routine. I'm not commuting anywhere. I'm just going upstairs into the loft, but I do my hair, I do my makeup and I may be in sweatpants and have no shoes on. But I, from here up on camera, I have this level of confidence. Like I'm really good at what I do. And I think that comes out in the conversations that I have. Look good, feel good, present good. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:07:28] Well, the example I had was the, um, I think I quoted you wrong the other day. It's the Mackie 66 and the importance of relationships and not just like doing your job and really getting to know the human on the other side of the conversation. And like the little touches matter of like, it's someone's birthday or your kid is super into soccer or you're a big Disney fan, like whatever those little nuggets that make each human unique and leaning into that.

[00:07:56] And that's really how you like drive sales and relationships is through that deeper connection. You know, we had a guy that I worked with that was on the partner side and he had a binder and he knew all of his partners, their wives, their birthdays, their anniversary dates, their kids' names, what schools their kids went to, what colleges they went to. And he was probably the best I've ever seen. John Reagan, by the way, shout out to him. He actually had this binder.

[00:08:24] I don't know if he ever shared it when he retired, but I encourage people all the time. This is not just making a sale. It's actually making a connection. And I say this all the time that people buy from people that they like. And I try and tell our salespeople, this is not a one-time interaction. This is going to happen over and over and over again. And I look at our top sales folks at Avalara and they're the ones that have actually built relationships with people and with partners.

[00:08:52] And those people come back over and over again. I met a guy at a trade show back in September, October, and I just randomly got an email from him and he was like, hey, Christine, do you have a minute? You know, I picked your brain when we were on the trade show floor and something came up that it sparked my memory that you and I had talked about. Do you have a minute to talk about it? Well, now he's a customer just from that one.

[00:09:16] So, so much of sales is relationships and not one-time relationships, but getting to know people and being real about it, not just like finding something out that you can just ask them over and over again. Like, how are the New York giants? Yeah. It's not leverage. It's actual understanding and curiosity, really. I mean, we've got a partner that I have worked with for a number of years and they're just genuinely good people.

[00:09:45] And I happened to be in Michigan one time and I got invited to their house for dinner and had dinner with him and his extended family. We went on a boat ride and they are just fantastic people. His daughter, who I met, who also works with him, had a baby. I sent him stuff from University of Montana and they're just good people. And I don't have to do anything with them business-wise. They're just good people that I would keep a relationship with for the rest of my life,

[00:10:15] just because of who they are and now what they mean to me. Yeah, I very much have learned that in good and bad ways. And it just made me really double down on it. Hearing you talk about that for a while as my mentor in the events industry, Ron Aleko, anytime someone would come in town and say, oh, let's go to dinner. Can we take you to dinner? He'm like, yes, but you have to come to my house for cocktails first. Oh, I like that. And so every, like at some point I was getting super annoyed.

[00:10:43] And I remember like on one Thursday night, I'm like, oh my God, I have to go to Ron's house for cocktails again like this. Can we just have dinner and move on? But then I remember sitting in his living room. And then six months later, we really needed a favor from one of the properties that we were working with. And because those people had sat in Ron's living room and had a cocktail, he picked up the phone and was like, I need five more rooms. Like at the group rate, I know it's a reach. Can you make it happen?

[00:11:12] And like 24 hours later, we had the extra five rooms or whatever it was because we'd built that relationship with them. We sat in Ron's house and we were there before we went to dinner down the street. And it really made a difference of like these people are our partners, not our vendors. And we have to treat them as the humans they are. You know, I think a lot of it is communication too, right? It's you're actively listening. People tell you an awful lot when you're talking with them.

[00:11:38] And if you don't have your own personal agenda of what you're listening for, you'll actually hear an awful lot more that you can kind of compartmentalize, make some notes. And it really personalizes things the next time you talk to them like, hey, how was that trip to Disney? Because they had mentioned, oh, I can't do this call next week because we're going on a family trip to Disney. Ask them about their trip to Disney, not just, okay, thanks for meeting with us today, but personalize it.

[00:12:06] So I think that's, I'm glad you took something from that. Yeah, for sure. All right. Last one before we move on. What's the most surprising thing you've learned about my industry, the events industry from watching me work in it? I mean, I share a lot of stories with you, so you've gotten like a insider peek of like what this job actually takes. The one thing, and I had mentioned this earlier in the show, was I didn't realize the physical, the physicality to it, especially from being on site.

[00:12:35] I mean, going, prepping up to it. And I, the part that I've seen is putting a booth together. But you guys take this to a whole other level, especially from a large event trade show perspective. I never knew how physically and mentally draining it was. And I, I don't know how you do it. There is, there is a group of ladies. It's a large ERP system that all of the event people at the end of the show, they go to

[00:13:05] the bar and they drink the menu. Yeah. And that is how they celebrate the end of another successful event is go to the pool, drink the bar menu. Yes. I used to take our team for like the Asian reflexology massage places where like you don't have to get undressed. You're in like a massage chair and they soak your feet and just basically rub you down. Nice. So I have a question for you and we hadn't even planned this one.

[00:13:33] I had mentioned Jay earlier in the show and I was working, I happened to be a partner manager at that time and I managed this ERP system and Jay had said. Tell people what ERP, I don't know that everyone knows what ERP is. It's a big accounting system where you can manage payroll and accounting and inventory and warehousing, all of those things. So Jay had said, Hey, before the end of the show, go get some gift cards to the spa and give it to these ladies that head up this event. And I was like, really?

[00:14:03] And he's like, just expensive and do it. And I was like, okay. And I found these three ladies and I had met them for years because I'd been part of this event for a number of times. And I walked down and said, Hey, thank you so much for putting this together. This was really well done. I appreciate this. I hope you guys can use this and take some time and going back to relationships, right? If I ever needed a favor, I could call them back, but that's not why I did it. It was just the right thing to do.

[00:14:30] Cause I don't think you guys get enough notoriety or thanks for all the work that you guys do into these shows. Oh, for sure. And if you want to have premium booth placement, give a gift card to the event planners. Yes, totally. Okay. Okay. Well, you've raised me and my sisters while traveling for work a lot. Um, you are definitely still a road warrior. So what's a moment in your career where travel felt like the right trade-off?

[00:14:58] Cause single mom on the road, like when was it worth it to leave? You know, you guys had gotten older. I certainly didn't travel this much when you guys were younger. That's true. Um, it was, I think you were already in college or finishing high school when, when the road warrior really started picking up in me. Um, which was a long time ago. It was a long time ago. Um, and, and to me, it just felt like the right time.

[00:15:24] You guys were not so dependent on me for everything that you did that I could then really put an awful lot of effort into my career. Cause I mean, not that I put my career on hold. I certainly didn't do that. I mean, I still excelled at an awful lot of stuff that I did, but taking it to the next level involved getting in front of people and doing more travel. But I mean, as a single mom, I just didn't have that, that ability to. Sure.

[00:15:53] Or necessarily the drive to, because I wanted to be there for the big things that you guys were going to do. For sure. So for a single mom in events or someone in sales, how, how do you find that balance? If you don't want to wait until the kids are a little more self sufficient, you know, where can they balance that out of like wanting to be the career woman and, you know, best mom? You know, you gotta have a lot of support. I had my mom, your grandmother that certainly helped me an awful lot.

[00:16:22] She made sure that you guys were at basketball practice and gymnastics and softball and, and all of those things that I couldn't do when I was on the road. So I think a lot of it has to do with support. And I mean, you hear an awful lot that it takes a village to raise a family and it literally takes a village and a half when, when you're a single mom or even a single dad. And do you want to, you know, make your career go further? And that involves some travel. You've got to have some people that are there to support you.

[00:16:51] And where we lived in Georgia at the time, we had a really strong community of people that would help us. If, if my mom wasn't around, we had other people that could step in like, Hey, can Megan come hang out with you? Can you get Sam to softball? Whatever that was. So it was really just having that support from family and community. So, and I think the emphasis here is not all family. Like sometimes your community is like beyond family, like close friends.

[00:17:19] And yeah, I mean, where we lived in Georgia to me was such a fantastic place. And you, I know that you experienced this, that if I didn't see you doing something wrong, somebody else in the community saw you doing something wrong. So by the time I got home from work, I already knew what had happened. But that to me was really the beauty of where you guys grew up was this sense of community that we had for sure. And I mean, I, I am super thankful for that.

[00:17:49] Anything you would have done differently? Um, I probably would have waited to travel a little bit more and put that on hold a little bit longer until all of you guys were out of school. That makes sense. I've, we've joked about this in the past. Like we both love watching sister wives. And I have asked you a thousand times, could you ever be a sister wife? And you said, yes, from the standpoint of I could be more career driven, knowing someone

[00:18:15] was at home, you know, raising my kids and the family that I wanted to raise. Well, to me, it's a sense of community too, right? Like, do I want to share a husband? God, no. No. But having women that have the same goal in mind, like somebody that cares for my children as much as I do. I think that's so, so hard to replace. So from that sense, sister wives makes total sense to me that you have this community of

[00:18:40] women that share the love of your children and share wanting to make them successful human beings. I totally get, and let's talk about sister wives for a second. So I do the Coleman three day walk every year and I sent you a message because I was on the plane going to San Diego and had been upgraded to first class. And who was sitting behind me? Christine. Christine. And she was with David, right? And she was with David. And the craziness is we get our luggage.

[00:19:09] We go, we're standing there waiting on luggage and she's standing next to me. And I totally didn't want a fangirl and be like, oh my God, she probably would like you. And then we're on the rental car bus and they're sitting behind us again. She was, were you stalking her? I think maybe. I think she was stalking me. And then later on that night, we had gotten into our house and everything. And we go to dinner in old town, San Diego. They're at the table next to us. And of course I'm like, should I go talk to her? And I was, I was texting you throughout the day.

[00:19:38] Like, oh my God, they're on the bus behind us. Oh my gosh, they're at dinner. It sounds like you maybe were stalking. Christine was stalking Christine a little bit in San Diego. Exactly. So was she at the three day walk? No, she wasn't. They were just there on vacation. I may have been listening while they were there. Oh my God. It was so horrible. So crazy. Well, at that point, if you saw her three or four times, you probably should have said something. I should have said something. Because that was like.

[00:20:05] Like at that point, the universe was like intentionally putting you guys in each other's paths. And she probably thought I was stalking her. I don't know if she was paying that much attention to you. I mean, you couldn't miss us because we were all decked out in everything pink. Yeah, but so was everyone else. You were there for three days long. I don't know. I totally should have. And I have second guessed that up like ever since. I totally should have said something to her. Well, I think it's a balance, right? Like you want to be respectful of their privacy too. They're on vacation. Like I get that they're in the public eye, but like, but still. I don't know.

[00:20:35] I probably wouldn't have said something either. After the third or fourth encounter, I might've been like, so we've been on the bus together. Like I probably would not made it a fangirl or maybe I would have played dumb and been like, who are you? Why do I keep seeing you ever? Why is everyone looking at you? Who are you? Are you stalking me? I probably would have turned it around on her. Okay. So thinking about road warrior, I just did a thing on LinkedIn recently about like the best travel hacks.

[00:21:00] And since you're on the road so much, give us some of your like top travel tips for someone who's traveling for work. I'm going to give you one that I use just a few weeks ago on my way to India. So I stopped in Paris, spent the day in Paris, spent the night in Paris so I could sleep in a bed and not travel for 36 hours. And I was supposed to have a hotel in Mumbai because I was going to get into Mumbai really late. But since I didn't speak French, I missed the gate change announcement in Paris and I missed

[00:21:30] my flight. So let's back up for one second. Not only did she miss the announcement, she also missed multiple phone calls. Well, there's a reason I missed the multiple phone calls. My phone is on silent after like 10 p.m. And the only time my phone makes a ding after 10 p.m. is when it's one of my kids that calls or sends me a text message. So still on sleep mode. Still on sleep mode. Yeah. So you got no notification. Well, it's funny. I went to the counter and the lady from Air France is like, Miss Martin, we've tried to call you five times.

[00:22:00] And I'm like, no, you haven't. Oh, yeah, you have. Okay. So you missed your flight in France. I missed my flight in France to get to Mumbai. So therefore, I was not going to stay in the hotel in Mumbai. So I called and they were like, well, you can cancel it, but we're going to charge you one night. And I was like, hey, never mind. Why don't you just change my arrival date to tomorrow? And they were like, okay. So they changed my arrival date to the next day. And then I canceled without a penalty.

[00:22:28] It's so scamming the system. I do this all the time. So to me, that is one of the best travel hacks. It used to be that you got better rates if you booked a round trip flight. That is certainly not the case anymore. But here's the other travel hack that I found. If you're flying into a hub city like Atlanta, like LA or Minneapolis for Delta, and that's your actual final stop, you can actually, this is so horrible. They are starting to ban people for this.

[00:22:58] Don't ban me, Delta. Be cautious if you take this advice. So actually one of my coworkers, and you can't check a bag, by the way. It's hop, skip. Yeah. So you actually book your flight to another. Or skip over or something. Whatever it was called. Something like that. But you book your flight to another destination, but you get off at that hub city. Yeah. And then you just miss your flight because you miss those phone calls, whatever that may be. It's totally not the right thing to do. No. And if the airline, they have started ban people.

[00:23:28] But I mean, now they've made it so that the flights are actually much more reasonable. I mean, before it used to be just that you got these round trip ticket prices and one-way tickets were crazy expensive. They've done away with that. So I haven't done this in years, but that used to be one of my hacks that I would do. I like it. Yeah. The other one, I think I learned this one from you. It might've been grandma, but I have a double set of everything. Oh yeah. And I have a travel bag that just stays the travel bag.

[00:23:55] So whenever I just go to pack and when I get home, I'll replenish everything from that trip if it needs replenishing. That way I always have like all the toiletries just ready to go. Two sets of makeup. Yeah. So you never forget that you don't have mascara because you always have one that sits in that suitcase. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's get into a little bit of meat about events. So when you say yes to speaking at a conference, which I think a lot of times for you, you get voluntold to speak at conferences rather than getting asked to speak, but either way

[00:24:25] you're signed up, you're on a conference agenda. What's the first thing you're looking for in the planner's email? I usually don't see the planner's email. It usually goes to our marketing team and then the marketing team just hounds me for the presentation. Um, so I rarely see it. We get to pick our own titles. Okay. Um, so we're working with, um, our marketing team constantly on who is the attendees and what is the right message for that group of attendees. Okay.

[00:24:55] What's something event teams do? Maybe they don't even realize it. That turns a friendly speaker into a frustrated one. Um, changing things at the last minute. You know, some of that's completely unavoidable. I know that's totally unavoidable, but that to me is, or actually bad signage. So I don't know where my room is. So that happened to me early on in my career.

[00:25:20] So now I am hyper-focused that I am going to go to the room that I'm going to speak in. It may be tomorrow, but then I'm going to go five more times so that I know where it is. So to me, the signage is important that I know how to get there because if I can't get there, other people can't get there either. So to me, just poor signage. Yeah. Okay. That's too bad. It is. What's the question every event team should ask their speakers, but don't like, what do you wish planners would ask you for more of?

[00:25:50] I wish that we actually had follow-up conversations because I never, from an event perspective, like it's very rare that our marketing people even talk with us about the after, after this event has happened. I mean, first we talk about, you know, Hey, there was 30 people that came, but that's about it. But I never hear from the event people. Cause I know that there's event people that are in that session.

[00:26:14] Um, but I never get any feedback from those event people on how that went or if they could hear something or, I mean, just something along those lines. There's never any feedback from the event people to the speakers. On how their session went. Correct. Or what we could have done better to make, because I mean, I would assume that the sessions are, um, they, the people that attend look at your event based on the sessions that are there.

[00:26:43] So I think having some feedback for the company and from the presenters on how, how it was portrayed or how it was presented and what they could do better that maybe you would want to ask us back, even without a sponsorship. Like there were so many people that loved your session. Will you do it again next year? So that kind of feedback I think would be super helpful. Yeah. I hate to tell you, I don't know that you're ever going to get that. I know. I know.

[00:27:09] I mean, so much of the responses to give speakers that feedback is relying on attendees actually filling out what they thought. And most of, I mean, the response rates on those are so minimal on attendees actually filling out like session and speaker evaluations. It's very, very minimal. Like I remember one session I had a couple of years ago, there's probably 150 people in the room and I think like 10 people filled out the session survey.

[00:27:37] Well, maybe that's why I don't get any feedback because I'm always like, I know that these people did, you know, surveys, at least they were given cards or it's in the app, but somebody tell me what people think of it because that kind of goes to this next piece of things, which is, hey, are we just going to do the same thing that we did last year? And we're going to have the same people speak as last year. Well, what if they got really crappy ratings and are we going to have them speak again? Maybe they got better in the last year.

[00:28:05] I don't know, but I can't think of a show that I've done in the last three years where I've actually seen the feedback. Good to know. Three years. You've been to a lot of shows in three years. I have. That's not good. No feedback. And there is some new tech out there. So for me, I don't rely on the planners for that. Like I have my own evaluation that I put up at the end of the sessions, which is not good practice. Don't come at me planners. I know I'm breaking all the rules and you don't like it when I do that.

[00:28:32] But if I'm not going to get the feedback from the organizers, then I'm just going to go get it myself. And I typically tie like you have to answer these three questions before I give you the slides or downloadable resource. Of course, it's a little bit gated. Like you have to give me feedback before I just give you my free stuff. Okay. Well, going a little bit deeper, not just from a speaking and a content piece of it. So when you go home from a conference, what's the actual conversation you have with your team or your boss about whether it was worth it?

[00:29:02] A lot of it has to do with the conversations that we've had. Like I may go to a conference and there's only 500 people in attendance at this conference. But if I've had really good conversations with people that have come up and said, hey, tell me about this. I'm really interested about this. I don't care if there's 500 people and we only got 150 scans. I know that I had really good conversations and this would be worth exploring a little bit further.

[00:29:29] As opposed to we've been to this conference and people only come by to get our tchotchke and they really don't care what we do. So to me, that's that big. What kind of conversations are we having? That's the big thing for me. Well, and how do you measure that? Because the C-suite wants data. They want numbers. You know, great. You had conversations. You feel good. It passes the vibe check. Great. But like what metric are you going to look at with your team or your boss to be like, yeah, these conversations converted?

[00:29:57] So we started doing something a little differently a couple of years ago. And I have encouraged our teams that if you're talking to somebody, everybody's got the scanners or their phone where they're scanning people. And if I'm talking to somebody or I see one of my coworkers talking to somebody, I go up and grab the scanner and I start taking the notes for the person that's having the conversation. Because I, to me, I find it a little bit rude that I'm talking to somebody in a booth and they're down looking at this typing.

[00:30:27] So I know you and I have talked about this, that there's some technology that you can record booth conversations. So right now we're just teaming up. And it's those notes that help us that, hey, I had, and we rate these conversations as well. So I think we're looking at those metrics. But not every show we have that kind of technology that we can use. Okay. What's the post-event metric event team should measure that they currently don't that would make your job easier?

[00:30:57] Like what do you want from your event organizer? Like that does your booth or your sponsorship or whatever. Like what do you want to hear from them after the event? There's an awful lot that I want to hear from them afterwards, but I don't want to hear about it once. So we have post-show conversations, but that's it. Like I know that we're not converting a whole bunch of deals two weeks later. I want to know 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. Where are we?

[00:31:26] Because to me, that's going to drive what I'm going to do next event and how I'm going to have conversations with those same group of people. So, I mean, we hear, hey, we had this many scans. Scans to me aren't necessarily a metric that shows success of a show. It's the close. How many opportunities did we have? How many deals closed? I mean, we certainly track those too, but two weeks after a show, I don't know what those are. So I-

[00:31:56] And you're not closing, like people have this notion that people go to trade shows to buy. And unless it's like a consumer buyer, like show where you're actually going to put in POs to buy faucets or food or whatever it is, like SaaS shows, like people don't write deals on the show floor. So you're not going to close a deal two weeks later. Right. Well, I will say that we had a Microsoft show in Atlanta, gosh, at the very beginning of my career at Avalara.

[00:32:24] And we closed a deal on the show floor. And my boss was like, that was amazing. How do we do that again? I was like, yeah, that's one and done. We're not doing that again. Yeah, that was a unicorn not happening. But I think just having these follow-ups, even if it's an email or a dashboard that I can look at to see how many. And one of the things that I don't see much of is like we talked about the espresso bars and the massage bars. And I see how many scans we got from those, but how many converted?

[00:32:55] That I don't see. So is it cool that we have all these scans? Absolutely. Is it cool that we have the massage booth and everybody wants to come to our booth because we have the massage? But how much are we getting from it? Do you ever go look at your pipeline? So let's say we're going into the second half of the year and you're looking at pipe and you know it's at least 60 or 75 days to close a deal. That's already in opportunity. Do you go to your events team and say, look, our pipeline's low.

[00:33:23] We need to maybe do an event in the next 30 days or 45 days to boost our Q4 pipeline? No. That's an interesting concept. Like, could you go to your boss and be like, our pipeline's low for Q1 next year and we know sales cycle is X long. Should it be that way or should the events team set the strategy and say, we know it takes this long to close a deal.

[00:33:50] So here's all the events we're going to do for the quarter, the year, the second half. Do they set the strategy or do you go to them and say, this is what I need? That's a really interesting statement that you just made or question that you just posed was, I'm not sure our events team knows how long it takes to close a deal. Should they? That's a great question. In my opinion, yes.

[00:34:16] Like if they're really going to do strategy to help the business grow, they should know how long it takes to close a deal. I agree. I agree. And I just think we've got to be a little bit more strategic to your point. There is all these data points that are out there that you could almost get, you know, analysis paralysis and say, here's all of this stuff. But I mean, now you insert AI into that.

[00:34:40] And I think you could feed the metrics for a show, all the metrics for a show into an AI model and really come up with what the strategy is for future years. Yeah, I agree. There's definitely tools out there and AI is making it easier to connect the dots and find the themes and do all that. But being the data nerd, I am good data in, good data out. Don't just dump your lead scans and your CRM into Claude or whatever and expect it to give you accurate data.

[00:35:09] Like it needs cleaned, it needs verified. What's the most expensive event spend you've watched companies make that basically delivers nothing? Parties. The after parties. The amount of money. I remember somewhere I have this picture too. I want to say it was a SAGE event in Las Vegas, probably 10, 12 years ago where we had a receipt that was so long and the venue wanted to be paid.

[00:35:38] And we had to call our CRO who was already in bed to get his credit card because the bill was so big. And he was a little angry with us. Yeah, I would imagine. So, I mean, we have done, we have made very concerted efforts to now bring partners in to help sponsor it because before we were footing the bill for everything and our parties back in the day were pretty epic. So I've heard the stories from them. And now they're still considered Avalara parties.

[00:36:08] But now we have done, our partner team has really done a great job of bringing people in to help sponsor those things. But again, this is where metrics come in. How much do we get out of those other than people know who we are? Well, and sometimes the brand awareness is worth it. And I think sometimes we get so caught up in having metrics. We've got to have the data and the numbers. But sometimes it's about brand and do people know who you even are?

[00:36:35] And sometimes you have to have a big party with lots of orange colors or whatever to make sure people know who you are. Okay, so some tax questions. Oh, goodness. When does an event organizer have to collect sales tax on a registration fee? Like I know you work with Cvent Work a lot. So when do we actually need to collect sales tax on a reg? So this one is so important. There are some states where these events just aren't taxable. And most of those are here in the United States.

[00:37:04] But these events that are outside the United States, and I think you've experienced this, there is a VAT component to all of these events. And here's the most important piece is if you've collected this VAT or even US sales tax, please pay it. Don't ever keep it and not report it. That's just the F word that nobody wants to say. So if you've got an event that is outside the United States, please be super aware that there is most likely some VAT impact to those.

[00:37:31] And who end up having to pay the VAT tax? Is it the organizer needs to collect it from the attendees? Or if they don't charge the VAT, do they just have to pay the VAT? It should be collected from. I'm not an international tax person, so I don't know all of the nuances. But somebody owes that VAT tax. Someone owes it. That was redundant VAT tax. VAT. We'll just call it VAT. Say that five times VAT. Multi-state events. So attendees are flying in from maybe all 50 states,

[00:37:58] but the event is held in one particular state. So what tax rules apply? Like if the show organizers from D.C., but the events in Chicago and the attendees are coming from all over the country, maybe the world, whose rules do they follow? It's wherever the event happens. Okay. So here is the piece that I think a lot of people forget. And this is kind of my little bit of income tax piece of things is just because you're

[00:38:27] located in Washington, D.C. doesn't mean that you have an event in Las Vegas is not a good example. Let's call it Colorado. Okay. Denver. You have an event in Colorado. You may have an income tax piece associated to that because now you're getting revenue that's associated to Colorado. So just because you're in Washington, D.C. or you're in Nevada that

[00:38:51] doesn't have an income tax and you're doing events all outside of your home state, you probably have some income tax that you would owe on those things. And where would an event person turn? Like who should they ask? Or should the accounting team just know? The accounting team should know. Should know. Got it. But here's the thing. This goes to partnerships, internal partnerships, is the event team when they are looking to do something. Make sure that they're talking with their accounting

[00:39:18] people before they do anything. Hey, what implications are there from a VAT perspective do I need to keep in mind with these registrations? I'm going to buy these things and resell it to my customer as part of this event. What do I need to keep in mind for the sales tax things? Or I'm going to buy them, have them shipped to me in Colorado, and then I'm going to ship them to California. There's a whole crazy tax thing that goes along with that. But I think

[00:39:48] California and taxes, groundbreaking. I know. But I think having this internal partnership of working together and saying, hey, we're doing these events. Here's what my contract looks like. Here's our piece of this. Here's what we're doing for our customers. Tell me what I need to know. Because I think there is an awful lot of, I'll call it ignorance for lack of a better word, about the impact. People are just

[00:40:14] doing their thing kind of in a silo. I'm going to do my event. I don't know anything about tax. Somebody else is going to take care of that. And sometimes, especially with the big changes that were made with the Supreme Court case a number of years ago, I think people take that for granted and don't necessarily know the impact it has on their business. Well, it's interesting. There's only a handful of times that our worlds have collided. And one of

[00:40:37] them actually is I was working with an association, a state government association, and I was supporting the SALT team, the state and local tax team going through the Supreme Court. And a lot of the attendees and staff members I was working with at the time ended up in hearings on Supreme Court for the SALT tax. And Avalara came to a bunch of our events and know many of your legal colleagues from

[00:41:07] them coming to our events. And only one time have I ever worked one of your events, which was a surprise. I know. It was crazy. Craziness. All right. So virtual events that have crossed state lines automatically, like if it's online, but everyone's joining from the world or across the country, like do they follow sales tax or because it's digital? Does it not matter? Oh, digital. It still matters. And especially if you're charging for this live streaming,

[00:41:34] that sometimes falls into telecommunications tax, which is a whole other realm of craziness. But again, outside the United States, the EU has a whole bunch of that on digital services. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So always keep this tax piece in mind. And I mean, I'll go back to kind of my solution consultant pitch on things here is, you know, a big portion of state income comes from sales and use tax.

[00:42:03] So and in the Supreme Court case that passed, now states are looking like, OK, now I've got more and more taxpayers and they're actively auditing people. And I mean, I'll give you a great example. My first job was for a big hospitality chain. And there was an Indiana auditor that went on vacation to Houston, Texas and picked up a catalog at a gift shop that we ran. And you could buy spacesuits and

[00:42:30] freeze dried ice cream. And on the order form, it says if shipped to Texas, add sales tax. And this Indiana auditor is like, well, wait a minute. I know they're in Indiana. And that auditor then convinces his boss to audit us, which they did every four years anyway. Sure. And one of the questions they asked was, show us that catalog, all the sales associated with this catalog. And the tax department's like, what catalog? So this goes back to partnering with internal people that you

[00:42:58] just never know. If you're doing an event that happens to have state government and tax people in there, just know if you send them a registration that doesn't have that or something on it, they're probably going to ask about it. They're going to ask about it. Yeah. Good to know. What's the sales tax mistake event business owners make most often that they don't think they realize? They just don't even think about it. I think that's the big one. I'm going to

[00:43:28] sell these things that you're buying things and then you're, you're marketing up and selling it to your customer. You owe tax on what you mark up. And same for like a digital course, not just a webinar. Like if you're selling courses or learning environments or something like that. Yeah. I mean, go back to thinking about the sales tax and what it means to the state is revenue, right? So to increase a tax rate, everybody has seen that you have to vote to increase a tax rate.

[00:43:55] I don't know of anybody today that's going to say, oh, heck yeah, I'll pay an extra half a percent. Nobody's going to do that. But the states can change what's taxable without it going to the voters. And we saw this in the state of Washington last year, October 1st, things that typically had never, ever been taxable, all of a sudden became taxable on October 1st. So I think just having this in the back of your mind, like, do I need to be concerned about this

[00:44:23] contract and how I'm buying things for this event and how I'm billing my customers and this registration and who's the merchant of record for these registrations? I think that should certainly be part of that thought process, if you will. Do you think event registration, like tech providers should have more tax conversations with their customers? And I think they should partner with us. But yeah, absolutely. No, absolutely. I mean,

[00:44:51] that's kind of the beauty of technology today. I mean, back in the day when I started my career, we didn't have this software as a service concept, this cloud concept, and people had to hard code it and build it into their software. And I mean, that's kind of the beauty of where we are today is now there's this AI and these agent to agent and agentic tax compliance and cloud software that nobody really has to think about it. They just have to set it up correctly. So kind of like your data

[00:45:19] example is junk in, junk out. If your data is bad, you're going to get a bad result. But I think people should just be aware that there are some implications about their event, whether it's sales tax, whether it's income tax, just be very aware and partner with the right people internally, or have the right partners that can help you with it as well. Good to know. Well, if you're an event tech provider, call Avalara. They'll do all the sales tax reporting for you. Okay, so we did crowdsource some questions for this interview. Oh boy, yeah.

[00:45:49] Oh boy. We got a couple submissions here. So from another Martin, we love you, DJ Graffiti, Martin Smith. As a business owner in the event space, what are the tax breaks and advantages most of us are missing out on? I don't know if there's many advantages other than expenses, right? Make sure that you are keeping good records of your expenses and make sure that you're separating personal expenses from business expenses. And I think so many people forget about

[00:46:16] the expense side of things and just little things that they're spending their money on and not keeping track of. So there's apps for your phone that you can take pictures of receipts and categorize them. So I think that's a big piece is keeping track of all of those expenses. The other piece, I don't know if it's definitely not an advantage, but if you've got contractors and you control what those contractors do, those contractors could then be, at least for internal

[00:46:44] revenue service purposes, could be considered employees, which has a whole other tax implication. So I think those contracts with those contractors should certainly be looked at so that you're not considered an employer of these people controlling what it is that they do. So that's like, if you're a solopreneur and you want to keep them as 1099s and not employees, you just have to be careful because the definition of an employee is it's changed over the years and

[00:47:14] how they do their job and how you control how they do their job can change how they're categorized for tax purposes. That's good. So it's not necessarily a benefit, but something to certainly be mindful of is this categorization of workers. Got it. So I'm going to assume the answer to this, but what's the audit risk most event or really just any business owners probably don't think about until it's too late. Oh, I just don't think they think about it is really, I mean, I hear this all

[00:47:43] the time. I was actually talking with somebody this fall and I was looking at their business. They actually had an office in the state of Alabama and I was looking at their filing calendar. I was like, you guys have an office in Alabama, but you're not filing there. And they were like, yeah, we're being audited next month that they hadn't even thought about registering. And the state of Alabama apparently was like auditing somebody nearby them and saw their name on a building and looked them up in the database and said, oh, they're not registered. Let's go audit them.

[00:48:13] And this lady was panicked. So you just never know. And this is where AI comes in. A friend of mine used to be an auditor for the state of Georgia and they used to, they were told that they had to look at the newspaper to see who was having garage sales every week. Because if you had a garage sale every week, it was no longer this occasional sale. You were actually a retailer because you had these sales all the time. That's insane. Right? So now that's insert AI. You don't have to have a person looking

[00:48:42] in the local newspaper who's got local newspapers anymore, but you've got these AI agents that can now look through all of these online advertisements to see who's having garage sales every single week. And you show up at their garage sale and being like, hey, where's my tax? So I think AI has changed the world of business and changed the world of tax compliance because it's so easy to find these

[00:49:08] people now. I mean, yes, that is true. Not the answer I was expecting. I thought you were going to double down on keep your receipts. Oh, well that too. I mean, I think that's just so important to keep those too. And I think the receipts piece is so important, but I think just knowing your business and periodically reviewing your business. And I tell our prospects and our customers that all the time is don't just start your business and never look at it holistically ever again. I think you should periodically go back

[00:49:37] and look at it and say, hey, I've got employees here. Do I have a tax exposure? I've done these events here. Have I created an exposure for myself for X number of years? So I think there's this periodic, holistic review of your business from a tax lens that I think is still important. All right. From my gal, DFD, Dana Frecker-Duty, what do salespeople really think about the person in their office who booked the

[00:50:02] trade show booth? Is it as contentious a relationship as it often seems? No, not at all. I don't think so. I think our event people that work on trade shows are absolutely fantastic. If you go book by hotel for a date that is after I'm supposed to arrive, then it's a little contentious. But I love, and kind of like a relationship piece, we've got a couple of our trade show folks that when I get through security,

[00:50:29] I stop at our gift shop here in Kalispell and I pick up Huckleberry Jam and I bring it to my friend, Margie, and she's like, oh, I just feel so bad asking. And I'm like, girl, I will always bring you Huckleberry Jam. So no, it is not contentious at all. No, I love, and maybe I have a better appreciation for our trade show people because of you. Okay. Well, Dana also added a second question.

[00:50:54] This last two are a little personal. Dana said, did Megan have this much energy as a child? If so, how did you survive? Oh my gosh. Megan has always had the energy. Actually trying to get Megan to bed. When she was little was hard. And I remember her dad had said that like the ground was molten lava and that there were alligators. And if you get out of bed, chomp, chomp, they were going to get you because you just would not stay in bed. But you have always been curious.

[00:51:24] And maybe it was because of Montessori school. I don't even know, but there was always this curiousness and the willingness to try things. Early on in my life, I remember Oma, my great grandmother, your grandma talking about, you know, when you stop using your muscles, your muscles die and your brain is the biggest muscle your body has. So when you stop learning and you stop being curious and you stop really challenging

[00:51:49] your brain, then your brain just stops working. And being, I mean, she went back to school way late in life to become a nurse practitioner. And she was always... She graduated when I graduated high school. She graduated with her master's degree. Yeah. And then she became a pilot after that. No, she was a pilot before that. She was a pilot when I was little. I think I just shared on social media a picture of myself at like five years old in front of her airplane. But learning to fly, going back to school, becoming nurse practitioner. I mean,

[00:52:16] she was the epitome of lifelong learning. So Dana, the answer is yes. And you can have to continue dealing with my energy. All right. Last personal question, because this is kind of a famous story for anybody that kind of knows the two of us. And I don't share this story very often. I don't know why. It's not like a thing, but... It's kind of a funny one. It is very funny. So the reality is the question of the... The answer to the question is yes, my mother did cancel Christmas one year. So tell

[00:52:45] tell the people about canceling Christmas. I will. So one Christmas, you guys woke up and it was, why did you get me this? I didn't want this color. I didn't ask for this. And you made Santa cry. And I think the words that came out of my mouth was not my finest parenting moment was, you guys are hateful shitheads. Next year's Christmas, canceled. And you kind of laughed it off.

[00:53:12] And you're like, you can't cancel Christmas. And I was like, oh yes, I can. And the next year's Christmas literally was canceled. You got presents from family members. Sure. But we had no Christmas tree. And I think you guys thought that you were going to come down Christmas morning to a Christmas tree. And you were like, what's for Christmas breakfast? Because we always make Swedish pancakes on holidays. And I was like, well, I'm going to Waffle House. I don't know what you guys are

[00:53:36] having. And I mean, one, shocking that I kept that promise to you guys a year later. Girl can hold a grudge. But two, I think it showed you guys some humility. Be appreciative of the things that you have. And again, how I came about it was probably not my finest moment. But I did stick to it. And it's funny. I tell this story to people who have little kids and they're like, oh my gosh, Christmas. And I'm

[00:54:03] like, you can't cancel Christmas on a five-year-old. You were in college. Yeah. And your sisters were in high school. So it's not like you were little. You guys knew better not to be a-holes about things. And you just were. So did I cancel Christmas? Yeah. Yeah, I did. I'm pretty sure the quote I remember from you was, you're all brats and you don't deserve Christmas. And so we're going to

[00:54:27] Waffle House. Well, I will say your nieces and nephews now are threatened with, hey, Gigi canceled Christmas. Do you want me to cancel Christmas? And they pull it together and they're like, no, don't cancel Christmas, mom. Gigi really canceled Christmas? Hell yeah, she did. Yeah, Gigi really canceled Christmas on here. So for the person, I can't remember who submitted the question about, did she really cancel Christmas? The answer is yes. Ryan Brecke, yes. And it wasn't like,

[00:54:54] oh, in a couple months, I'll get you presents. Like there was no backup. Like it really was just like legitimately canceled. There were no presents later, even though she is famous for hiding Christmas presents and then forgetting where she hid them. So it would be like April 10th. And she's like, oh yeah, by the way, here's your Christmas present. I forgot that I put in the closet. So like sometimes it's Christmas all the time, depending on where her memory goes. I get that from Omom too, because Omom would like send Christmas presents in April. So I hide them so you couldn't find them.

[00:55:23] But then I forget where I hid them. So then I would buy them. Yeah. So yeah, kind of Christmas all year long. All the time. Okay. Well, normally we close the show with a close to our truth, but I got these new curiosity connection cards. So I'm going to have you pull a random curiosity card and we're going to each answer what's on one of these cards. All right. So you can shuffle, draw whichever one you want. Pick one here. Okay. And I'm reading this. Yep.

[00:55:53] Oh, if I walked into your home today, what would it reveal about you? Oh God, that I'm a messy, disgusting human being probably. Know that you live by a bunch of trees, I think is a good one. Oh yeah. I do live in on the side of a mountain. There's a lot of trees, which also means there's bugs and leaves and stuff everywhere. Which also means you don't have a dining room right now because a tree fell on your dining room. Is that also true? That's an interesting one though. What would

[00:56:21] it say? What would your house say about you? Um, that I have a dog that sheds a dog a day and, um, I probably spend way too much clean time cleaning things and making sure there's nothing on the counters. I mean, you do have an amazing view from your house. It is a spectacular view. Your house is very Montana. I'll say that. It is very Montana. And I guess having two dogs,

[00:56:43] I'm a little anal retentive about cleaning and vacuuming and dusting all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great curiosity question. All right. Well, we're going to leave it there and remind everyone where they can find you. You can find me on LinkedIn, Christine Martin. I work for Avalara, so you can find me there, or you can follow Avalara on X on LinkedIn. You will see me there as I participate in a whole bunch of podcasts and trade shows as well. Amazing. Well,

[00:57:13] thanks for tuning in to another event about it after show because the best conversations start after the show ends. Until next time, stay curious.