AFTER SHOW: How to Measure Event ROI Without Faking It

[00:00:06] Hey everybody, welcome back to Event About It, the Dynamic Dialogue After Show. I'm your host, Megan Martin, and I am here today with Steph Pennell. And just a quick reminder on who she is, Steph started her career in the B2C experiential marketing at Pierce Promotions, part of the Omnicom group, where she was on the ground launching brands like 3M, Kleenex, and Power Bar, learning what it actually takes to make a human being feel seen at scale. From there, she crossed over into B2B, and she's a great writer.

[00:00:36] She ultimately becoming head of event marketing at ZoomInfo, one of the fastest growing SaaS companies in the country, where she built and led the full events function, managing every type of event, Imaginal, trade shows, road shows, sales kickoffs, cabs, executive dinners, pretty much the entire realm of events at that point. And then after ZoomInfo, she did what something most people only talk about wanting to do. She went out on her own and founded Anjanue, her event strategy consultant.

[00:01:06] She's a consultancy brand, and she's branded herself the event critic. So that's kind of where I want to start is, where did this even come up with? Like, how did you brand yourself the event critic?

[00:01:19] I, it was like one of those weird things in conversation. I, I can't remember, I think this was before I, like, I resigned from ZoomInfo. I was having a conversation with someone who I was doing like consulting with on the side. And I was like, you know, I kind of just want to like tell people what to do or what not to do, like a food critic, but for events.

[00:01:45] And he was like, like an event critic. And I was like, boop. And got off that call. Or actually, no, we were still on the call. I was like, is that domain available? Sure was. Bought it. Write that in there. I mean, you can declare it. You can self-claim it. I love that. Yeah.

[00:02:04] Well, we all need one. I mean, and I think sometimes, even when I was prepping for this episode, when I was like, oh my God, critic, it sounds so negative, right? And I was like, but I don't think it has to be. So how do you turn critic into like a positive affirmation instead of feeling negative, like critical and judgy?

[00:02:25] Yeah. Even before, like before I started getting clients, which wasn't that long, honestly, I'm very grateful and lucky to have an incredible network.

[00:02:36] Um, I attended a few events and like, I shared feedback after. And I was like, hey, like you did these things great. If you really want to make this even better, here's like three to five suggestions. And that's how I approached it. So it's, it's like constructive criticism. I'm not just going to go around and shit on people.

[00:02:56] Like, cause it, cause also there's so much about events that are personal preference. Right. And I'm one voice. Um, but where I think like things kind of took off is because people need the motion around it too.

[00:03:13] I think that's where you provide so much in your critiques is the motion and the frameworks and the follow throughs that so many people miss. Like in, in my opinion, I think it's really easy to throw a beautiful event. I mean, with enough money, anything can look pretty, any hype reel can make an event look good, but did it actually do its purpose or are you just throwing events to throw events? Yeah. And I think that's where you bring a lot of structure to the conversation.

[00:03:43] I hope so. Well, I know so. Well, looking at your career and being the event critic, you've, as we mentioned in your highlight, you've run every single type of events from B2C, B2B. There's not a lot of people that jump both sides of it. So when you were crossing into the B2B world for the first time, what was the thing that kind of stopped you cold?

[00:04:07] Because I think there's a lot to be learned from consumer events that, and vice versa, like business events can learn. Like what's some of that gap that really surprised you?

[00:04:18] Yeah. And when I switched into B2B, I didn't even start with an events role. It was like, like a glorified EA, like an operations type role to a sales leader. And like, I will die saying that she changed my life because I learned so much on the sales side. So it was, it was a very interesting transition. Within six months of being in that role, they moved me into run field marketing for North America. So I was heavily involved in their, their trade shows and their annual conference as well.

[00:04:49] And the biggest, the biggest lesson learned immediately was these people getting these people to show up is way harder than getting like people to show up for a brand. Like no one wants to come to anything. And I was like, Oh my God.

[00:05:05] What? What do you mean? You don't want to come to this awesome thing? Like, like, yes, it's way less cool than when we like were, you know, doing grand store openings for B2C brands. But oh my God, you don't want to come to this event? Why not? So you're saying in the B2C world, it's a lot easier to build it and they will come than B2B world. Like you have to build it and then tell them why they should be there.

[00:05:30] Yes. Yeah. And I guess I, this didn't really click, but like, that's where my journey started of like, how the hell do I get people in this room? Like, and so with B2C, like you're playing on people's emotions. You're like getting, you're talking to them on a more personal level. You're, you're selling to the human where the switch to B2B, it was like, they cared about,

[00:05:52] the account going there. And if you're not also thinking about the human from the account who you actually have to get to before you get the account, remember, that does not help. So I think that was like the two, the two most like stark transitions and, and two of the things that I like actively tried to solve for over the years.

[00:06:17] I think that's great. And one thing I just want to double down on, because we've talked about this many times on the show is like, you might be selling a product, but you're still selling a product to a human, human, human. There is a human on the other side of that product who is going to be using it. So let's not forget about the humans. And this is very AI driven world. Now there are still humans.

[00:06:43] Yeah. Yeah. So do you think your time starting with a sales leadership and being in field marketing, which is much field marketers don't think they're events people? I mean, they really don't, even though they do a lot of events, they think very differently about their events. I think there's a lot to be learned from events, people in field marketing. So did that change how you approached when you got into, you know, full fledged, like global event marketing?

[00:07:11] Yeah. And to your point, like field marketing means something different in every organization. Like I swear, I've come into multiple companies and they're like, oh, this is our field marketing team, but they're also running like trade shows and corporate events. And I'm like, oh, whoa. So that's like a hybrid. So it's very, very different. By the way, like I still to this day don't do this perfectly.

[00:07:36] This is honestly the hardest thing is to stay in lockstep with sales about your event strategy. But I at least had like, like learned the understanding of like how they're thinking about things and what they need to be successful. And because when you're asking sales to do outreach for an event, yes, it will ultimately benefit them, but it's added on top of their existing job.

[00:08:00] And somewhere along the way, that's when I realized that SDRs or BDRs are actually your best friend in event registration, because if you work with their team and align it to their existing quota, like we did at Zoom Info, like if you get someone to book a meeting, a one-on-one meeting and attend the event, that's a demo booked in your quota. If they show up and the meeting happens, that's a demo one complete.

[00:08:27] So like if you work it into that structure, which I probably would have never kind of thought about in that sense, if I hadn't had that experience, that's where you see the wins start to come through. No, I love that perspective. And it kind of goes right into my next question nicely that in one episode, we had your former colleague, Mark Killens on, who is just- Wait, he's the one who I was talking to about the event critic. Oh, got it. So we love Mark. Hey, Mark.

[00:08:57] And on his episode, he talked very closely about how like sales, marketing, and events, they don't need to be aligned. They need to be unified. And we hear all the time, like just bring sales in earlier. Just bring marketing in earlier. That's how you get alignment. But I think we know that that's not really true. So how did you push past the surface level of bring them in earlier to actually unifying those teams so that there's outcomes after the events?

[00:09:26] And it's not another salesperson being like, oh, I have to go to this event or, oh, the events people are calling me again. Like how do you get the BDRs, SDRs, and AEs to actually be your best friends to execute on these programs? Yeah. Well, first of all, honestly, building a relationship with these people. So my team at ZoomInfo, like they were pros at like building relationships internally with the sales team leaders and members that they knew would support the events. Like that is number one.

[00:09:56] Number two, at a place like ZoomInfo. And I don't know that this would be true in others, but like the leadership was very data driven, not shocking. And so as long as you spoke, there was like this old saying by Rachel I used to work with, like talk data to me. Like if you're talking the same data language, people are just going to get it better.

[00:10:23] Whereas if you're like, I think actually some of the stuff we were trying to do was called fluff. But then when we said, oh, that's not fluff and said started tracking something like revenue in the room, that made sense to them. So it's like we know you don't care about like to a certain extent how many people are in the room.

[00:10:45] You care about who's in the room and how much pipeline is either from a retention standpoint being impacted or how much pipeline from net new revenue is being influenced and could potentially become created from this event.

[00:11:01] And so I use, we used, and this was, um, this is like another, like very like distinct moment where I had a leader, um, like Mary Beth at the former company and my mentor. This is when I started working with Brian Law, who is now the CMO at Nerdio. And he was like, well, let's bring data into this more. And that was never my strong suit.

[00:11:25] Um, and so working with him on like all of that, that's where we reached that point of like, you just have to speak the same language and whether that's data or something else, like at least the numbers, like don't lie.

[00:11:41] So we worked with our, um, like growth and optimization leader there at the time who worked very closely across sales and marketing and operations and defined those event metrics to make it. So we were all speaking the same language. I think that's so important. And there's so much loss in that. And I think event teams are finding themselves working under a demand gen business function. Now they're reporting to CMOs. They're reporting to CROs.

[00:12:11] Those people do not speak event language. If you show up to the table and say, we have 5,000 people registered or 500 people, whatever the number is, they're going to be like, so what? Is it the right 500 people? Is that how much revenue is in that room? How much, how many customers do we have? What's the retention play if we do this?

[00:12:31] Like there's a next level down that planners have to start showing up to the conversation with and not attrition and budgets and all the normal event language stuff. Like that's not how you're going to get unified with your sales and marketing teams. Yep, correct. 100% agree. And thinking about data, because data nerd here are all about the measurement and like understanding the why, because you have to know the end zone.

[00:12:59] You have to know where the finish line is so you can actually measure appropriately. Do you think brands would be sort of amazed or astonished about their event performance if they actually dug more into their numbers? Like I think people would shift their portfolios a lot if they actually understood their event attribution numbers. 100%. Yeah, we start like one of my clients, I've been with them for over a year now.

[00:13:24] They were like, actually my first B2B client when I was out on my own. We, I worked with like their existing team and we looked at all the events they've done and the impact that we made. And I was like, you got to cut these five. These are a waste of money. And they did. And we like, but again, it was like, you get in the motion, you're doing these things and maybe you're not thinking about it in that way.

[00:13:51] Or in the way that you should be to see if these are actually like doing what they should be doing for you. And I think a lot of people, I actually think there's a lot of people out there who just don't know how to look at that or what they should be looking at. And again, it's, it's like, I can, I go in kind of and give every client, like, here's what you should be looking at. But also, I don't know enough about your org and what you guys care about to know for sure.

[00:14:22] So take this, but also think about it in your realm too. And like, how do, how do we mold this into what you guys actually need? Um, and that, that's when I started realizing when I was started working with more and more clients, I'd be like, why are you doing this? They'll be like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, well, what's the purpose of this event? What is the purpose of this engagement? What is the purpose of this dinner? What is the purpose of this trade show?

[00:14:47] They'd be like, well, we do it every year and it's, uh, you know, successful for us. And I was like, how is it successful? Most of the time they can't answer the why or why it was successful. Um, and it's, it's like, they're going off of like vibes. I'm like, oh, okay. So you spent like a million dollars on this event. And you're like, yeah, it was good. We had fun. People had fun. Lots of people on site said they had a good time. And I'm like, oh. Yeah.

[00:15:17] Our NPS score was through the roof. We got a 9.5 and you know, a thousand people came to our party. Like, okay. Yeah. That's what success looks like to you. Yeah. Yeah. So if, uh, an event person was now finding themselves reporting to a CRO, let's just say they're in a sales function role and they're getting asked by their leadership. What events should we cut? You went to your client and said, cut these three events. They're not serving you.

[00:15:44] What were you looking at to guide them to say, these aren't hitting the mark for you anymore. You should get rid of them. Like what metrics are most important? I know every niche is kind of. Yeah. Has its nuances and every organization's a little bit different, but in general, like where would a planner start to speak that demand gen language? Yeah. And this is, um, first of all, I do think there is a distinction between an event planner and an event marketer.

[00:16:14] Uh, they're two very different roles. And not that like one is better than the other. It's about experience and the situations they've been in. So if an event planner who has less of a, I would say demand gen background, um, gets put in under a CRO, they're going to have a much harder time than an event marketer who may have had a field background or a close relationship with demand gen.

[00:16:43] Um, and this is where I, I like babble so much about like how an events team should be set up. And I still have not figured out the perfect answer because A, it depends on the environment, but B, you either need to have someone who can do the event planning and the demand gen piece of it, almost like sales motions, like plays, or you have to have a, like a dedicated

[00:17:10] or partial time dedicated demand gen person, rev ops person, growth person dedicated to supporting your events team and working in lockstep with them. Um, there's three roles actually. Like, I think there's an event strategist who's looking at 40,000 foot view with the entire portfolio. They're looking at everything from a kickoff to a president's club, to field marketing,

[00:17:35] to the annual user conference, you know, their trade shows there across the whole thing. But then you have the event marketer who's really probably closest to the numbers of like analyzing it of like which markets, which regions, which verticals within the company, what's converting, what's not. And then you have your planner. That's the operational team focus, like actually going out and doing the work. Yeah.

[00:18:04] And I think that's like so hard because events team often are the most lean. They are. And in, you need to treat events like a go to market motion. Like it is a demand gen motion. You know what I mean? Like there's a lot to it. Um, so those few things I would look at immediately are, okay, how much did you spend on this? Like obviously ROI, but then how are you calculating that ROI?

[00:18:30] So that's where I look at revenue in the room slash influenced pipeline. So, um, like, cause the other thing that's really hard to, to put it like measure is time, the time and energy that goes into this. And there's a lot of time and energy that goes into events. And so, you know, I think like industry standard is what, like three to five X ROI.

[00:18:55] Um, last time I checked and I would rather sit around six or 7%. And with the right motion, you can do that. Um, but again, I went in and kind of looked and said, okay, who are these people in these accounts from the existing customers, how much annual recurring revenue or whatever they're

[00:19:21] using, how much ARR did you directly impact or influence from this event? How much expansion did you create? Um, and then on the new side, how many open opportunities did you influence? So you look at that revenue in the room broken out by these different categories and then how much net new did you influence or create?

[00:19:46] And where this gets tricky, this is like the perfect metric for events, but it gets tricky depending on how your product is sold. And so, um, if you're an email marketing tool, for example, and your product is, is priced based on how many emails the company will send in a year, you don't necessarily know that going into the event. That's one of the things you have to figure out. So, you know, it's like tougher pre event, but after, as long as you're having the right

[00:20:14] conversations with these people, that's when you can kind of prove that value. Um, and then I also looked at it like in scenarios where it was available to me, um, that impact over time. So over 30, 60, 90 days, um, cause then that will also show the value of, um, that influence. And if it's like moving the needle, accelerating pipeline and things like that.

[00:20:41] Um, some of them were very easy to look at and be like, you had one good opportunity from this and it never amounted to anything. So let's look at the list and say, are any of these accounts people you actually cared about? Um, and that's the other piece. You kind of have to also understand what sales cares about, like what they need from that event at that time.

[00:21:05] You could be doing the same like field style VIP dinner event in April, and that's going to be a pipe generation event. And then you could host it again in the same city in October, and that's going to be an acceleration because you want these people to close before the end of the year. I think those are all great metrics to start with. I think this is where event people have to really understand the business they're in.

[00:21:32] And I think we get stuck a lot of times in measuring an event right after it happens. And we kind of need to look at it longer because if you know, the sales cycle is, you know, sometimes in enterprise accounts take 10 to 12 months to actually close. Like you have a multi-touch point approach to that. And so if you host an event in March, but you know, they're not going to close until December. Well, you need to go back and look at that March event in December to see what actualized

[00:22:00] and how much influence did that event have to it. So you really have to understand your business and the sales cycle and the business goals, objectives. I know it's so annoying we say this on like every episode, but like you really do have to understand what they're looking at. Yeah. So you mentioned in the main episode, I think those are great takeaways. And I want to go one step further before we move on. In the main episode, you mentioned one of your clients has like the ideal stack or like the

[00:22:29] ideal workflow and how they're doing pre-outreach, post-outreach the event, and then what their tech stack and flow looks like. So kind of walk me through what is their best practice and why do you think they're doing it so well? So we built a foundation and I think that's why it works so well. In the foundation, I just called it an outreach matrix because I was like, I don't know what else to call this.

[00:22:58] We're not the creatives here. Yeah. And then sometimes I look at it and I'm like, I feel like I'm in the matrix, like Keanu Reeves or whatever. I'm like, why did I call this this? Because people refer to it now. And I'm like, oh, yep. That foundation is basically there. So we're not recreating every single time. So what the foundation is, it's a spreadsheet and it's like, okay, here are the types of

[00:23:27] audiences or the segments we're reaching out to for our events. And we've got customers and some clients keep it all customers. Some keep it like existing customers and some keep it anyone with an existing customer with an open up. We treat them differently. Depends on the client. But this is like the first exercise I like to do with clients. And then we've got your prospects. And these are, we break those out by net new versus open up.

[00:23:56] And open up, we know are a little bit more sensitive to sales. So we treat them differently in the outreach. And then we've got any like specialty audiences. So it's like, if you're hosting an ancillary event around a trade show, we're extracting the speakers and sponsors from the website and enriching those. And we're going to give them more of a like a C-level to C-level type email. Or if you've got cab members that you're inviting to this event, they're getting a separate type of segment.

[00:24:26] From a different person. And it probably has partners, creators, influencers in there too. Yep, exactly. Yeah. And then we say, okay, what's the flow for this outreach? Because the copy doesn't change all that much. It tweaks a little bit. And we also know that people are going to be more likely to open an email from, say, the CEO or the CMO, depending on the audience.

[00:24:51] I like to do like, you know, matchup of like both levels, but also like teams and like marketing to marketing, sales to sales, blah, blah, blah.

[00:25:29] Mm-hmm. So you're doing individual outreach by segment. So it's like, you know, general marketing starts higher level at the C-suite and then goes down to like the account level to the BDR, SDR, AE, whoever may be assigned.

[00:25:57] So they basically are getting three touch points probably multiple times before the event even happens. Yes. And it's not done manually. So the one-on-one emails we're sending either in outreach or instantly or HubSpot in some cases to look one-to-one, but it's not. It's upscale. Yeah. This is the other thing you kind of need.

[00:26:27] You need to control the narrative for at least those first two touch points and not put like, love you sales, love you CSMs, love you everyone in go-to-market, but I can't rely on you to fill my event. So I have to control those first few touches as best as I can. And then we take it from there.

[00:26:51] So the process is identify your segments, identify who that first touch point is coming from and who's picking up that, those third and fourth outreach sessions. Identify what tools you're using for each of those segments. So you're working very closely with ops. And then identify the messaging and the tone. And so when we create this copy, it's like we create it.

[00:27:18] And then I actually have a Claude scale set up to say, to then recreate it for my clients for each of those segments and who it's coming from. So you're saying the same thing, just slightly different to the different audiences. And that's where I think it's a little bit more work up front. But when you're just like sending the same message to everybody from a marketing email, that's when like I just don't see you being successful.

[00:27:47] And that's how you're able to curate that perfect, you know, group of people in the room. For sure. And then what does follow up look like afterwards? Similar instance or does it depend on how they interacted at the event? Yeah. Depends on the components of the event. So if there were one-on-one meetings, we're going to treat those differently. So yes, it's kind of the same. But the post event is a little bit different in the sense of, yes, it's about who the person

[00:28:17] is and what segment they fit into, but also how we engaged with them at the event. So, you know, recently my client was at Shop Talk. And so we had people who engage with us at the booth. We had a VIP dinner. We had a golf outing. And we had a round table breakfast. And so you have to think about, and some people came to multiple. So that's where that gets very nuanced. So what I typically do is like, again, air cover one email to everyone we engaged with, with the CTA that we want.

[00:28:48] That's, we try to get that out as fast as we can. We always know, like we try and it's hard. But then, you know, with anyone where we had that one-to-one interaction, if we weren't able to book a meeting on site, which some of my clients are actually very good at doing, like they'll be in the conversation and they just book for the following week, then that is the follow-up.

[00:29:13] And we either pass to the AE or the account owner, if it's an open op, or the SDRs to work on those, to get those booked. Well, there you have it, people. That's your workflow. That's your framework for engaging. I mean, doing it right is work. I mean, it's the segmentation at scale. And those who can do it right are doing it right and they're seeing the results. But it takes a little bit of time and stepping back and not just rushing from event to event.

[00:29:42] But to your point at the beginning, once you have the framework down and you sort of have the playbook, it becomes a lot easier. And as technology is getting smarter, it's easier to segment and send personalization emails and segmented emails at scale as the tech is kind of keeping up with where we need it to be. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Well, before we run out of time, I want to switch gears a little bit on a, end on a

[00:30:10] little bit of a personal thing. So we talked recently about how you went out on your own and when the world of all the layoffs we have going on right now, I'm sure there's people thinking about taking the leap. When did you know it was time to leave the corporate world and start your, start your own company and start scaling for yourself? Ooh. Yeah.

[00:30:37] I like re-feel the anxiety in my body when someone asks that sometimes, like not in a bad way, but it's like, it was, yeah, it's a lot. Like, um, I did a lot of therapy sessions about it. Um, I also. Before you quit? Like prepping to leave or after? Okay. It was like, like these therapy sessions were like prep to leave. Okay. Um, and I had a good, a great coach.

[00:31:02] Um, and looking back, I would say if, if, um, if you're open to it, I, I ended up after already quitting, but I, I learned about this thing called human design. The biggest thing it helped me to understand is when I'm, when something doesn't feel right for me, it manifests as anger.

[00:31:27] And I was really angry in my last few months at zoom info. And I like, don't get me wrong. The environment wasn't good. It was like, it wasn't good for me. Um, I know people that are there and thrive and I know a lot of other people who the environment wasn't, wasn't good for again. We're all different humans. That's why IMEX works for some people and IMEX doesn't work for you.

[00:31:53] That's my, that's my ADHD and definitely my introvertness talking about the IMEX event. Like I walked in and I was like, oh, I'm overwhelmed. Help me. Um, again, I don't know how I got into this line of work. Um, but, uh, and so I like was thinking back and I was like, oh my God, like that wasn't stress I was feeling. That was like anger. Like I was so unhappy, like, and, and I know that when things are working for me, when I'm

[00:32:21] in, in an environment and doing things that work for me, I, I genuinely feel at peace and I'm calm. And I, like I was acting in a way during that time that wasn't me. And I was able to figure that out in other ways, like through therapy and through like, just honestly so much like internal, like discovery and, and all this stuff.

[00:32:48] But if I think honestly, and people are probably going to be like, I hate this answer so much, but if you feel like it's the time to go, it's the time to go. Like, and, and then it's just a matter of setting yourself up to take the leap. Um, maybe don't do what I did. I had no plan, but I did have a vacation plan to the South of France. So I like quit and then flew first class to the South of France and partied for a week and then came back and I was like, okay, so I like need to figure out how I'm going to

[00:33:17] live. Um, a little important. It worked out. It worked out. Um, so I think the biggest thing is like listening to your body because that's going to tell you the most. If you're, if you're not feeling like the, whatever it is you're in or doing is, you know, giving you energy, like just because it's how you're making money right now doesn't mean it's what you're supposed to be doing.

[00:33:47] And during that time, I actually was, well, I did just say, I've tried to leave events multiple times, but during that time I was like, I hate events so much. Why am I doing this? And then I realized I didn't hate events. I hated my environment. I hated what I was dealing with. I hated the politics. I hated the hustle culture. I hated the bro, the man club, whatever it's called. Like, dude, no, that was so not for me. And like, I tried to sit at the table. I tried to be more macho than them. And I was, it made me angry.

[00:34:18] And so anyway, when I ended up doing that human design exercise and like got the reading from that, which you can just go online and do it. Like, I think it's called human blueprint. It's, I've done it. It's incredible. It changed the way I operate my life. Yes. Yeah. And now when I'm like, I feel angry and I'm like, why do I feel angry? I'm like, oh, something's, something is not aligned with how I inherently am supposed to be acting and my energy is off.

[00:34:46] And if you don't want to do the woo woo, if you don't want to do any of that stuff, if like there's a tiny voice inside of you or a feeling in your stomach or a feeling in your back pain, like anything, and you're not energized by what you're doing every day, that's how you know you need to make your plan to exit. And is there a piece of, now that you're in it and you probably have more clients than

[00:35:14] you need or want right now, what advice would you looking back now give yourself that someone might take away? Like, what would you tell your former self to give it the pep talk to make the leap? It's going to be okay. Okay. Like, no matter what you decide or what you do, I kept saying to myself, like right before I like made the leap. First, I asked for a sign from the universe. Again, woo woo.

[00:35:43] The sign came in within 24 hours and I wrote my, I'm quitting email, like within five minutes and I sent it the next morning. Like, I was like, oh, well, there it is. That's what you have to do. You have to be just so rooted in who you are and your decision. And I sat there and I was like, worst case scenario, I get no clients. I have to give up my apartment, move back in with my parents at 35 years old. And then I get another full-time job. What? Like, that's not that bad.

[00:36:13] Like, I mean, the moving in with your parents part might not be great, but it's really not that bad. That would have sucked really bad, especially since they live in Maine and I don't ever want to live in Maine again. But like, but truly like you're, you still can breathe. You still can walk. You still can show up every day. You still can eat. And, you know, like you're still alive. So it's like, take the leap. And then when you feel like so rooted that that's what you're supposed to do, know that

[00:36:42] it's just going to fall into place and everything's going to be fine. And if it's not, all you have to do is go get another job. Like set yourself up. It's called a fuck you fund. Start saving your money. If you don't have a fuck you fund right now, save your money. That way, when you have that feeling, you can always just go. I think we're the same human because I have done all the same things and the human blueprint changed how I navigate the world.

[00:37:12] It was eye-opening to me. Um, I also have a fuck you fund that is prepped and ready to go for the day that I want to pull the trigger. It just sits in an account. I check on it regularly just to make sure. I think I'm like, I'm ready to sell all my designer. I don't care. Like if I got, if I got to go, like I'm, these are just things I'm, I'm woo woo. And I love nice things.

[00:37:38] I'm a Taurus, but if I had to like start over again, everything around me, it can go. I'm not woo. I like to tell people I'm not woo. I'm just a little woo. I'm just a little woo. I'm wicked woo woo. I'm like, this is a protective crystal woo woo. I love it. I absolutely love it. Okay. So as we're wrapping up last couple of questions for you. So you've talked publicly about your ADHD diagnosis and the way your brain works in highs and lows.

[00:38:07] Again, I think we're the same human. I've never formally been diagnosed, but I check literally all of the boxes. Um, even recently so much that, uh, David Adler, he's a reporter covers a lot of events in the industry. You actually wrote a piece recently that says, does everyone in events have ADHD? Um, he's calling it fluency in motion, but sometimes that fluency has a cost.

[00:38:34] And when figuring out your ADHD diagnosis, and I've been on a little bit of a similar journey to you of like finding the work motion that works for me, the nine to five doesn't work for me. Um, I am too curious and my ADHD brain always is buffering and having too many windows open. So I had to find a unique work environment for myself. What, how does that show up and manifest for you?

[00:39:00] And like, now that you have a diagnosis of ADHD, how do you navigate events in your system? Yeah. Oh man, it's really hard. Um, and it changes as women. I noticed mine changes throughout my hormonal cycle. I'm very open to talk about all this stuff. Um, the flow app is my favorite app on, on my phone. Yep. Yep. Um, look, every day looks different.

[00:39:28] I thrive on routine, but I feel suffocated by routine and it is really fricking hard. Um, especially working for yourself. So what my days have been looking like lately, and I say lately because they did not look like this a couple of weeks ago, even is I'm a night owl. I wake up around like seven, eight and I get ready and I journal. I do journal and meditate every single morning.

[00:39:57] Um, and then I start working. I'm trying to get back into my fitness because that makes a big difference. Um, but I do crash around like two or three and this is a product of my ADHD meds. If anyone's wondering, like, make sure your psychiatrist is good. I'm switching right now. Um, it matters. And I take my dog for a walk and I take a break from work. And usually during those work hours from like eight to two or three, I'm in meetings.

[00:40:26] It's a lot of meetings. And then I do actual like heads down thinking work when I get this, that weird ADHD second wind that people get around like seven, sometimes 8 PM. And I'll go until 10 or 11 until the work is done. And, uh, sometimes I meditate again before I go to bed and it's not normal. And sometimes I get frustrated that it's not quote unquote normal, but that's how I do my best work.

[00:40:53] And so you kind of have to be okay with it and then actually being on sighted at events, you know, I'm not going to lie. I struggle, uh, cause I am an introvert and, um, I have to like really, really make sure I eat food, drink water and sleep. Like that's all I try to do at events these days. Cause otherwise I honestly wouldn't do those things. So, I mean, the amount of snacks that I keep in my bag when I'm on show site at an event, waters, chomps.

[00:41:23] Yes. All the same snacks. I mean, very much operate the same way. And my brain works in waves, very similar to you. And I keep a notebook actually on my nightstand next to my bed, because sometimes it's 10 o'clock at night. And as I'm going to bed and settling down, my brain starts firing up of like the creative inspirational moments. And if I don't get them out of my brain in that moment and kind of journal through them,

[00:41:51] they're gone or I never sleep or I never sleep. Mine. Sometimes I think of something I have to do. And then I'm like, if I don't do that right now, it's going to be gone forever. So I could be like walking my dog and I'm like emailing someone about an event venue and I'm like, yeah. Couldn't agree. I swear we're cut from the exact same cloth. Okay. So as we're closing out, so let's actually close out that conversation. If you have ADHD or you're self-diagnosed, please call Steph and I.

[00:42:21] We will help you. We will walk you through. Just honor your energy for what it is. Don't try to force it into anything else. It's my one-minute piece. I love that. Okay. So one thing you mentioned in your prep call, and I'm going to hold us both accountable because I think this is an amazing idea and I want to help you bring it to life. So in the prep call, we talked about back of house, a 911 space for maybe junior event people

[00:42:48] or people coming to the industry for the first time and things start to go a little sideways, but they don't want to call their boss and they don't really know who to turn to because maybe they don't have a network of peers deep and experienced yet. So talk about this idea and then let's help bring it to life. So tell us what back of house is.

[00:43:10] Back of house is my idea of like a community where for events people, where it's not like, we're not talking tools, we're not talking like, I mean, we can talk venues and stuff, but it's more about like strategy support. And like for the event planners who don't have that marketing brain, like tapping into other people who do and vice versa.

[00:43:38] Maybe a demand gen person got put into an events role and they're like, what the hell do I do with venues? You know, and then also I'm thinking about when I was younger and like in B2C and I was at an agency and I had terrible bosses and I was like, oh my God, this is totally screwed up. And I have to call them and ask them like, like I have thought through every scenario, like that quick thinking comes over time. And so if you're more junior, like maybe it's easier if you ask that to someone who's not,

[00:44:06] you know, giving you your annual review, not because they wouldn't understand, but because it's, it's like, you know, you don't want to have to go to your boss for something that you feel like you may have screwed up or be failing at when in reality you just are learning. Or it's a, you think it's a dumb question, but it's a question everyone at that stage in their career is asking. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So yeah, it's that.

[00:44:30] It's like meant to be a place to bounce ideas and educate and be like the older sisters and brothers to the younger generation of event marketers. Like, hey, we paved the way. We have some answers if you want to ask the questions. I absolutely love it. We're going to make this a reality. We're going to figure it out. So everyone stay tuned.

[00:44:57] If you want to be part of back of house, please send Steph or myself a note. We'll start a list. And when we bring this to life, we'll be sure to give you first access to it. Because I think this is important. The Slack group exists. We just got to put people in it. There you go. We'll, we'll include the link to the Slack channel in the show notes. And then maybe we need a WhatsApp group for those like real emergency 911 moments. I don't know. We're going to make this a thing for you. I love it. Thank you for holding me accountable.

[00:45:27] I needed that. Well, we're going to make it happen. Well, this conversation was everything I hoped it would be. And then some. And I dream of the day we get to meet in person because I think we are, like I said, soul sisters here, very operating in similar spaces and ways and are navigating the world very similarly. So it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for being on Event About It after show today. Thank you so much.

[00:45:56] I had so much fun. I really appreciate you reaching out to have me on here. Well, and that's all the time we have for today. Thanks for tuning in to another event about it after show because the best conversations start after the show ends. Until next time, stay curious.