The Business Side of Events Nobody Talks About with Stuart Ruff-Lyon

[00:00:06] Welcome back to Event About It, the Dynamic Dialogue After Show. I'm your host, Megan Martin, and I am back today with Stuart Ruff-Lyon. And for some quick contacts on Stuart before we dive into conversation, he has spent over 20 years in the events industry, joined RIMS in 2012 as Director of Meetings and Events, and has risen through the ranks to become their Chief Commercial Officer overseeing events, marketing, and sales. He served as PCMA National Board Chair in 2020.

[00:00:36] He has been named a PCMA Business Events Strategist of the Year, Smart Meetings Planner of the Year, and was a finalist for PCMA Event Designer of the Year. I mean, so many accolades I could keep going on. He leads the Risk World, the world's largest annual gathering of global risk professionals, and has been at the center of some of the most important conversations in the industry about security, brand transformation, and what it actually means to run a conference as a commercial strategy.

[00:01:04] In the main episode, we played the debrief, we vented about the state of the industry, and Stuart shared a very interesting story about cybersecurity. So be sure to go back and check that out. And so let's get into something, it's always hard to talk about, but it was such a transformative year, I think, for me professionally. And that's where we first met. You were the PCMA National Board Chair. I was president of the Rocky Mountain Chapter of PCMA.

[00:01:35] And I'm just curious from your perspective, like, what were the conversations happening inside PCMA nationally when the world was kind of shutting down? Because we had a little bit of a glimpse as, you know, chapter leaders into what was going on. But man, 2020 was, it pushed me so much professionally in the best way, simply because I was in that chair position. And I'm curious if you felt the same way and what those PCMA conversations were going on.

[00:02:05] I sort of blacked a lot of it out. Not really, but I feel like I wanted to at the time, right? You know, it's interesting because I came into that year thinking it was going to be this great big year of like, you know, traveling with PCMA and speaking at different conferences and taking the stage, right? It ended up being a virtual year with more board meetings, I think, than we ever had that particular year. And, but honestly, I am proud to say I was a COVID chair for PCMA during 2020, right?

[00:02:32] It was really, it was a year of like change and massive change and really catastrophes that were happening. So, and, you know, the board conversations were, I think, what you would expect, you know, how do we keep, you know, members engaged? How do we keep the community thriving right now? How do we, obviously, financials were obviously, you know, always a bit concerned in an organization like that. And even though, you know, the sad thing was just, we were losing so many people, not just from membership, from the community who were being laid off and things like that. So that was really painful to see.

[00:03:00] So one of the things I actually did when I was, when I was leaving as chair in January of 2021, the President's Award, I gave to all the members. And I was able to give them a free membership to extend their membership for a while while they were going through a hardship. So really proud we were able to do that, of course. But yeah, it was more about how it kept the community, the community thriving, you think, you know, I think too. And also 2020 just wasn't a year about COVID. It was also Black Lives Matter, a lot of civil unrest was happening, right? How does that play into the organization?

[00:03:30] How can we better serve our members and underserved communities? So it was, it was not the year I expected to have as chair, but it's honestly, it was a very rewarding. And really, I grew a lot professionally that year from that. Yeah, same. And I think one of the biggest things I took away from it is, you've said it many times right now, is how you look at community. And I definitely look at the events industry and the events that we do and how we show up very differently because of that. Yeah.

[00:03:59] I look at community and building and support in a very different way because of, you know, that one specific year for sure. Yeah, definitely. And thinking about like putting on your rims professional hat, did you guys start looking at the event differently? And did some of the rebrand conversations start happening when everything had to move virtual? The rebrand conversation actually started more in like 2017, 2018, I think.

[00:04:27] We went through some various studies about it. And I really wanted to name it Risk World, but obviously we want to make sure that was the right name. A lot of research and studies hired outside firms and everything to help do that. So it was really a confirmation, a conversation around how do we transform the show and keep it energized and everything. And a new rebrand would help with that, I think. So we were able to launch the rebrand. It was supposed to launch in 2020 at our Denver show at the last day we got to unveil the new brand.

[00:04:57] But obviously that didn't happen. We had to cancel 2020 and 2021 was not the year to unveil a new brand. So Risk World debuted in May of 2022. And was that almost a blessing in disguise to have a couple extra years to really fine tune it and make sure it was the right decision and the right brand and the right message? Did that actually end up helping you in the long run? You know, that's a good question. Possibly.

[00:05:23] We actually had more time to tweak different things about the show, I think, too, and sort of adapt to what was the reality now of in-person conferences during COVID or right after COVID. Right. So, yeah, it probably did give us a cushion there and help us to plan on a loop harder. And walk us through how and why. You said you brought in an outside firm to do some research. I mean, RIM's annual conference was around for 60 plus years. And a lot of people say, like, well, it's not broke. Why do we fix it?

[00:05:51] So what kind of spurred the idea that a rebrand needed to happen to give the annual conference its own identity with the name Risk World? Like, kind of walk us through the why and how of the rebrand. Sure. So there's a lot behind that for sure. But what springs to mind, too, is that, you know, from a global perspective, people really understand what RIMS was. We say, are you going to RIMS this year? Will it go to RIMS? Right.

[00:06:17] So trying to attract a larger global audience, we realized the show needed more of a definitive kind of name like Risk World. And also, I think we wanted to show, too, that the show constantly changes. It wasn't the same show it was prior a few years ago. Let people know that it's been refreshed and they're a new brand. And it's been interesting to me, too, because I've seen that people actually have really adopted the name Risk World because I wasn't sure if they would actually adopt it. I thought everybody would still say, are you going to RIMS? Are you going to RIMS? But by and large, everyone says, are you going to Risk World?

[00:06:44] And so it really has become this standalone brand that really, you know, when you're there, obviously, if you're not doing what RIMS is, you come to know what RIMS is. Right. So, yeah. And as we know, most associations, there's a lot of politics at the board. How did you navigate some of maybe the legacy members that maybe weren't so excited about giving the show its own identity and rebranding it to Risk World? You know, I can honestly say I had a lot of support. There wasn't really a naysayer in the room.

[00:07:14] Everybody sort of adopted and really liked the name Risk World. And they thought it would be great for our growth strategies and what we're trying to do with the show, of course. So I had a lot of support around that and not really a lot of naysayers, you know. Well, that's a blessing in disguise right there. It doesn't happen very often. No. Well, overseeing that sort of transformation and having started as director of meetings and events,

[00:07:39] and today now you're the chief commercial officer overseeing events, marketing, and sales with the same organization. How do you think some of that logistical operations focus has helped you get into overseeing marketing and sales? Because you don't see a lot of event professionals that kind of move up in that same way. They kind of end up at a plateau and then don't know where to go. And so how did that help you get to this C-suite spot?

[00:08:08] You know, I think honestly it is about understanding the connection to the brand. What can it do for Rams? What can it do for the show? What can it do for revenue? Obviously, it's a huge revenue driver for us, right? I think understanding more about the dollars and cents, not just the expense side of things, why they cost as much as they do, but understanding revenue, how it's coming in, how it's offsetting expenses is incredibly important as you want to grow in your career, of course. Logistics are important. We're always going to need them. It has to be perfectly one.

[00:08:36] You want to perfectly run, well, execute a show, right? You don't want any hiccups, right? That's totally important. But as you think about maybe advancing your career, looking at something different, it does become more about understanding attendee acquisition, sponsorship acquisition, things like that that are really growing the show and driving revenue and member engagement as well. And how did you start getting some of that experience? Did you have a mentor in the organization? Did you raise your hand?

[00:08:59] How did you start expanding your skills to start undertaking and understanding the bigger picture the event had on the organization? Yeah, it's an interesting question. I go back even farther than that, actually, because I always used to say you can't expect someone to hand you a professional development plan. You have to recognize what were your shortcomings and where you really need to be, right? And so years ago, before I became a director, I understood if I wanted to do that as an association, I needed to understand programming, education content, right?

[00:09:29] So I had a brief career doing that for a big, large medical show. You know, I understood I needed that as part of my recipe because I needed to understand the full purview of what was behind the event. And so very similar to me after that. It's like, where do I want to go next? Becoming a director was a really big deal for me at the time. It was a really big thing for my career that I really aspired to. But I also just not want to really rest on my laurels that way. Like, I tend to want to, you know, always seek something else. And, you know, I find, too, that, you know, if you ask about something, ask people at work, why are we doing this way or what are we doing?

[00:09:59] And I say, can I be part of that conversation? Can I learn this? Can I, you know, I think that really helps, too, to go a long way. Because events are connected to the entire organization. But certainly marketing and sales, first and foremost, spring to mind about event management, right? So the more you understand about that and have those conversations with those leaders as well, I think the more strategic you become. And what's maybe a good piece of advice for an event professional that kind of wants to

[00:10:26] move up, wants to get in a C-suite position like you? There's not a ton of people who have moved from events up into a wider sort of responsibility overseeing things like marketing, sales, membership, potentially. What advice would you give them on where to start going wider and thinking bigger? Yes, that's an interesting question, too. I would say it's twofold there. One of them is to sort of do an assessment of yourself, have a mentor, talk to a mentor. What are the skills I need to develop in advance?

[00:10:56] What can I take if I attend PCMA or ASEE or virtual webinars? Or what certification should I give to support my advancement, right? That kind of stuff goes a long way. But I also find just having a direct conversation with your boss sometimes will go a long way that way. Just be honest and say, I'm looking to do more. I'm looking to raise my profile. I'm looking to, I want more to know about marketing or sales. And I want to have more of a strategic role that I do right now. And I find that the right boss, especially one who's more into mentoring,

[00:11:25] would definitely appreciate that, actually, and help you. They'll say, this is good for you. You should learn this. Be a part of this conversation, right? And I think that really goes a long way to further your career, particularly if you want to stay within the same company. That's a great point. So two follow-ups on that. One, what if their boss isn't so supportive? Like, not every boss is really forward thinking and mentorship and the importance of that. And, you know, what's the saying? Like, rising water raises all ships kind of thinking.

[00:11:54] So what if someone doesn't have such a supportive boss? Like, what's a way they could navigate that same way? I would say having an industry mentor would be incredibly important that way. And obviously, the PCMA offers programs with mentor connection and just attending those conferences. If you're supported to attend them by your company, I can go a long way to meeting people. Like, you know, for example, when I, you know, really got into PCMA a bit more, I made the board of directors at a bar in the hotel one night, right?

[00:12:23] And that got me thinking, I think I want to be on the board. How can I do that, right? And I had to develop friendships and conversations with mentors to help me achieve that goal, right? So mentorship is important, whether or not coming from your boss or externally. I think it's very important to find the right mentor in the industry. And what about internally? Like, did you have other mentors within the organization? Maybe someone on the membership team or someone on the marketing team that kind of, you know, worked with you and kind of gave you some insights into

[00:12:52] what marketing would look like to help you develop those skills? When I came to REMS, we worked very closely with marketing. So marketing and events were aligned very much so because of revenue tied to the organization and risk world revenue and things like that. So I think just, you know, learning from them, learning by, you know, to see what they were doing and asking questions. So why do we do it this way? You know, always being curious about things and understanding, you know, the why behind it, not just the, here's how to do it. Here's how to do a mass email, whatever.

[00:13:21] It's understanding, well, why are we doing it this way? Why are we doing it this way? And why are we doing it another way, right? So again, too, it goes back to also taking more, you know, sessions on that when you attend events or attending webinars. Learning more about event marketing is incredibly important. I think these days, if you want to have a strategy role in the events industry. Yeah, it's great advice. And the second follow-up to your point was, you've been very fortunate to move up within the organization. I never had those opportunities.

[00:13:46] So I kind of jumped around to get that experience and kind of had to move outside of organizations to get that wider extended experience that I was looking for so that I could get into a more strategic role. What advice do you have to someone? Because we've navigated our careers on two very different, you know, floor plans or maps. Like, what advice would you give someone if they can't find that next ladder or that next opportunity within their organization?

[00:14:16] Should they stay or maybe make a sidestep to move up? Yeah, good question for sure. I think back on how I did this and how I reached my career, definitely before coming to REMS, I had different associations I worked for, even worked on behalf of the federal government, doing events at one point so I get international exposure. So I definitely was like sort of not a job hopping, but stay in places long enough to make an impact there and learn what I needed to learn and then move on to something else, right?

[00:14:44] So eventually I was qualified to be a director when the job posted. So that's one way of doing it, obviously, keeping that in mind. But internally, you know, again, it goes back to, do you feel like you actually have the support of your boss and your leadership? Are events being treated strategically? You know, that's one thing, too, is how are events treated, how are they viewed by the organization, right? Because there have been some organizations I know for sure, I know several out there still, that view events only as logistics and mostly as an expense, right? They have no appreciation for what really goes behind their career.

[00:15:13] But if you feel supported where you are and you have a mentor or a boss who wants to see you grow and you feel that, I think it's really, that's a great place to say that, right? Say for a while and then see what happens. But if you don't think you have that support and you feel like you're stagnant and stuck, then you do know it to yourself is look and see what else is out there and make that change. Yeah, I think that's great advice. Great advice. Okay, well, shifting gears a little bit. In the podcast episode, you told us the story of the cyber attack on your content management system.

[00:15:41] You guys have also published a bunch of research about another crisis situation that you had at one of your shows in Atlanta. Walk us through what happened, and then we're going to get into kind of what you did afterwards. Sure. So it was last day of the show for Risk World 2023, and we were on a high. It had been a great show. Everything had just come out so well and everything had been pretty perfect and we were really pleased with everything. As I always say, the best risk world ever.

[00:16:12] So, you know, it was great. And then here we're getting ready for the conference finale, the closing keynote, it would have been Danica Patrick that year. I know we referenced her previously. And then we find out someone comes to me, and actually it was, they came to me directly and said, you know, you're needed. The chief needs to talk to you, chief of police. You're needed right here in our conference room. Come with me. And so I was like, what's going on? I thought maybe somebody had been arrested or something. I didn't know what had happened, frankly. I was like, you know, just in my mind, I was racing. She wouldn't tell me until we got there, which is an agonizing walk.

[00:16:41] Oh, that's the worst. Talk about anxiety inducing. It was so anxiety inducing. Then we get there, they mentioned that or inform us that there had been an active shooter situation two miles away from the center that, that, that impacted our hotels. Four of our hotels were on lockdown. Two of our shuttle routes were stopped. And it was the last day of the show. So really we had to figure out what was going on there. And other pieces of information flying out, he was still on the loose. We didn't know what happened. Sadly,

[00:17:09] somebody lost their life that day over this in Atlanta. But it was very stressful because we didn't know which way he was headed. The reports were very conflicting where the shooter was actually headed, what part of town and everything. Right. And sure. And so other things are flying now as soon as social media was reporting that additional shots have been fired in another part of town. Come to find out that was a car backfiring. Backfiring. But, you know, being in the war room, as we called it with, with all the, our police and our contacts, we knew everybody in the room in advance. It was helpful. You know,

[00:17:38] we were able to navigate the situation and sadly had to cancel our conference finale closing keynote that day and keep people in the buildings longer than, than we normally would have, obviously. Right. So it's a very, very stressful incident to happen during your show for sure. Well, I guess the one saving grace that happened on the last day, as opposed to the first day. That's true. I thought about that very, a lot actually. Yes. So if there is a silver lining, none of your attendees were injured. So another silver lining,

[00:18:06] walk us through the command center. So who's in there when this is going down, you mentioned chief of police of Atlanta, obviously your teams in there, your event team, probably your leadership. Who else is in that command center with you? Sure. I'm major people from the building. We're in there. Like, you know, the top level leadership, top of the leadership of the CBB was there as well. And then from the rim side, it was pretty much me, my CEO and our director of communications were in there.

[00:18:36] And our director of it actually was in there as well as former, our CIO was a former New Jersey state trooper. So it kind of came, comes in handy sometimes. That's helpful. But like I said, what was helpful is we were, I think we were really good about crisis management plans back then for sure. And we always made sure we knew everybody who was in, who would be a part of that. There wasn't a stranger. It wasn't a hate to walk around and shake hands or anything. It's like, Bill, how are you? You know, what's going on kind of thing. Right. So I think in a situation like that, it's important to keep it a little on the smaller side than opening up to

[00:19:05] too many hands in the pot at that point. So I agree. And I think you guys also have been very transparent that you've had good crisis plans, but you weren't totally prepared ahead of time for something like this or having to shut down the center and some of the hotels and reroute, you know, the shuttle buses. You have since issued a huge report with ASAE, which we'll link to in the show notes for anyone that wants to go read it. But after everything got settled,

[00:19:33] what did you guys do to combat this? Because you've, you guys have talked about how you weren't as prepared as you could have been in this moment. So what did the post conversations once everything was kind of over and done, what was that conversation? Well, we analyzed everything. We went through minute by minute of what happened. The moment I was informed, the moment Gary was, our CEO was informed, the moment our director of communications was informed, right? Every minute by minute thing that happened that we did and communications we did

[00:20:02] was analyzed and put out there for anybody to see. And addition to that, we looked at our crisis plan again, 73 pages. It was a long, it was a big plan, right? And we, I was actually curious to stay around with me, print it out. What's the likelihood of having to flip some, some of these sections right in the middle of the moment. You didn't really, really, really do that. And plus the traditional event crisis plan focuses more on the venue and the convention center than it does about anything else in the city that could impact your hotel flow, your block or your event. Right. So those are two of the things we really looked at very closely. And I think also realizing that,

[00:20:31] you know, we didn't have the bandwidth to maybe do this on our own, to develop a stronger security and everything, right? So finding the right partner to work with us, to help us elevate our game certainly helped us come a long way. And you guys are at a very large outside firm to help you think through this. And you just made a very interesting point that I think a lot of events and event people specifically get into is the crisis plans. And this was even in my operator days,

[00:20:58] we're all planned out for things that we could control. Right. So like if someone got sick or something happened in the building or in one of the hotels, we had plans for that. But I don't think any of us have factored in, like what if something happens in the world around us that is completely out of our control. And you guys brought in a huge firm to kind of help think through all of that, which is amazing and helpful. And now you have all the plans and things to implement should it happen again.

[00:21:26] But not everybody has the buy-in from leadership for that and or the budget to invest in a security plan like that. So what advice would you give to an events person or a leadership or a CEO that maybe doesn't have the budget to do that? Like where can they still start developing a good security plan without a huge budget if they can't bring in a firm? Sure. To those actually may say all the security,

[00:21:54] I just want to say that imagine if it's your show and somebody did walk into a convention center, which usually are like public buildings, public spaces, right? And it was coming in and out the door and something happened, how to damage your brand, your reputation. So for an organization like RIMS about risk management, obviously that would be catastrophic for us. It would not be very good. So we take that to a higher level. That's what we do budget more money on it, I would say. But you can start with simple things. Again, just understanding like who's going to be in that room, understanding the people that are there, security and safety, what plans they have in place, right?

[00:22:24] You can start with something as simple as that and educating your employees about it, but also your attendees. So actually now we start every, not every session, but our smaller meetings always begin with an update or a talk from the director of security in that venue or that hotel. It talks about the closest exits, what to do in the bit of emergencies, a little bit of PowerPoint. And that's all of our smaller if it's open, whereas risk world always has a security video that tells everybody what's going on. So that's part of it as well. But, you know, also to considering things like if you are in a convention center,

[00:22:53] should you lock down the building in terms of like, should you consider like everybody must be bashed for your events? You understand everybody who's in there, right? That bears a cost as well. But I think it's just going and looking a little bit deeper at the plans, looking deeper into what happens in the city, making sure relationships are built and known already as if anything does occur. And to just be thinking about that, having that general awareness of, you know, anything can happen anytime to disrupt the event. And what are we doing to manage that? These risks, you know, do we have a plan in place? I absolutely love that.

[00:23:23] And I think the big thing I want to highlight that you're talking about is bringing all those people together. Because in a situation like this, you've got hotel securities, you've got convention center security, you have your staff, you've got city police. I mean, depending on where it is, you might have other jurisdictions in there. So I think everyone being bought into that plan and the attendees too. So walk me through a little bit on the communication piece of that. Like when, because now with social media,

[00:23:53] there's probably some attendees that found out about what was going on before you guys potentially did. So what does that communication out to the attendees look like? Very interesting question. One that we really analyzed very thoroughly. And that's why we've made so many changes to our communication strategies going forward. You know, at the time we cell phone collection was optional. We had emergency contact information you have to give and downloading the app that year. We had around 10,000 people. I think, I think only half of them have downloaded the app.

[00:24:22] They have notifications on and then the email component, right? I emailed the right people or hotel. So there were a lot of communication struggles there. I think that struggles, but you know, people, people have had different access to different communication pieces, right? So streamlining that was certainly a huge help for us. And then we started requiring cell phone information for mass texting. And the event something does go wrong to ensure we're hitting all the right people at the right time at the same time, With a clear message. So one of the things our CEO did, which I thought was brilliant on site that day in Atlanta,

[00:24:52] he actually asked the question, but it wasn't part of our plan. He said, under all of your digital screens, are they connected? Can we put a message on all of them? And so he did that. I gave him full credit for that, man. He was, that was brilliant. That's so smart. The GWCC, the George World Commerce Center was showing the message, right? He also recorded an immediate, so we had our production team there getting ready for the keynote. He recorded an immediate message. It went out to our members. It went out to our, to our website and everything, right? About the situation, what we were going through.

[00:25:21] So communication definitely was something we learned a lot more about and really have greatly improved that. if something were to happen again, we're just not going to want. Yeah. Agreed. I mean, that I never, I don't know that I ever would have thought about like, are all the TV screens connected and thinking about how you guys network your show too, with all the speaker ready room and pushing out to the digital signs with the agendas. Like what an easy way to start broadcasting updates and things.

[00:25:50] Like I applaud to your CEO for thinking of that. That was genius. Absolutely. It's been an interesting point too, about social media, people finding out very soon or whatever, sooner than we could possibly. And that was, that was not a huge issue for us in 23. Although I can see it becoming a bigger issue for people as time goes on. But, you know, like I said, the sad thing about that for us, because we were monitoring social media, all the news channels and everything right from our, from our command center, was that so much bad information was coming out on social media.

[00:26:18] People were just posting things they thought were true and people could read that. For example, additional shots were fired a few blocks away and ends up being a car that had backfire. You know what I mean? So it's like, that was, that was a panic moment. We were like, what's also this is a report on X. Oh my gosh. And what's happening right now. Right. And you know, then we had the police were just so everyone was still calm about the situation. I gotta say everybody in that room, like inside, I was a swirling vortex of anxiety, but I kept it cool on the exterior and it's able to run the show and run our crisis plan with our,

[00:26:48] with our leadership. So, well, definitely a watch purchase deserved after. Exactly. All right. Well, let's shift gears a little bit. I don't, I want to end kind of on a much higher note. So I was reading a piece in convene magazine where you talked with your T a lot about how your team is working on a three 65 plan for risk world. Um, not just a show plan, but a year round plan. What does that actually mean for you guys? Cause we hear a lot about year round engagement,

[00:27:20] content repurposing. How do we extend the life of these shows? What does that mean for rims and risk world? I think for right now, we're still developing more about that strategy right now, to be honest with you. But I think for me, it's about keeping the brand fresh in people's mind all year round. Right. So it shouldn't just be like this thing that builds up from January to, to May, early May to have this conversation. It should be keeping risk world in people's minds all year round. That could be repurposing a piece of content for free as a webinar or something like that. Or it could be, um, posted.

[00:27:50] We talked about posting quarterly updates about, about risk world, like video updates like this to say, this is what's going on right now. Uh, we've talked about, you know, other speakers promoting it, other attendees promoting it throughout the year, because I don't want it to be just a thought somebody has. I don't need to register and then it's over in four days. I want it to be an ongoing sense of community. And sense of, um, brand engagement for the, for risk world. And what are some of those plans? You've mentioned that you guys look at your top sessions, repurpose them,

[00:28:18] or maybe invite the speaker back to do a webinar on it. You do clips, you have learning management system. What are some of the community side, um, that when you think about event design, so how do you extend that community, not just the content? It's interesting. I think we do a much better job now creating community on site, but having those like networking subgroups meeting up, like for chief risk officers, ERM or about diversity groups. So on site, that's a different conversation, but I think we do struggle with that right now,

[00:28:47] continuing it on a different level. We do have a member engagement, um, system called, um, uh, RIMS engage, which is for members only though, very similar to PCMA catalyst or something like that. It's where people have conversations and there are many subgroups when you find your community or missing an opportunity is the non-member. Like how can we get them more engaged throughout the year? Right. I think that's something we are still having conversations about, still working towards right now. Um, then we'll have to see how that goes, but definitely it's not perfect yet, but we want to, it'll get there.

[00:29:16] Is there a piece of it that you're excited to experiment and try with going into this year? Cause your show's coming up in a few weeks. Like, is there something you're excited to start trying after this year's program? You know, um, what I'm most excited about right now is the idea of community meetups at the show that aren't just diversity related. They're more about topical related. It could be enterprise risk management. It could be, I want to know more about AI, small, small, small groups of people having small group discussions, meeting each other that way, building a network and building, hopefully a network that will last beyond the show. Right.

[00:29:46] In terms of conversations going on after the show, we still continue to, to look at that and work on that. Right. We don't overdo it for sure with, with putting things out there, but honestly, risk-fold is a year round event because we, for example, we finished May 6th this year, June 2nd, we start selling 27, 27 risk-world. And we bring all of our exhibitors and sponsors to a fam trip, basically to new Orleans to start doing that. Right. So it's a very tight turnaround. So every year of the month, there is something going on with risk-world that maybe not everybody knows about.

[00:30:15] Maybe they can't engage more. Well, that's a good point because I think a lot of planners are in that same boat and they don't even have a few weeks. They open the show next year's registration. And they start promoting it during the current show. So how does that then feed into a year round engagement strategy, content repurposing? Do you walk into 2026 event already with a plan of, this is what we're capturing. These are the meetups.

[00:30:42] And this is sort of what we want to do with all of that. Or do you wait for the show to be over and being like, okay, these were all the like most impactful moments. Let's build something around that. Combination of both. Actually, I would say like, we'll be going to with, with our, you know, with what we think is going to be the big impact kind of stuff. Right. And what needs to be captured on some time to on site that could, that could change possibly. Right. So always have some sort of plan in place beforehand though. Not just walk into it. But I think after the show,

[00:31:11] analyzing after the show is dangerous because then you delay any kind of potential, you know, community building or communication that could go out to the group. Right. So having some sort of plan in place first, I think is, is, is smart. Yeah, I agree. And I think you're able to capitalize on some of those spontaneous moments and some of those unexpected highlights that you can capitalize on. You can move quicker on them. When you have a plan in place, when everything's not a fire drill,

[00:31:40] you can then really be able to have the space and time and brain capacity to capitalize on some of those spontaneous moments that come up that weren't part of the plan. Absolutely. All right. So kind of in the same vein, let's talk about some of the business side of this program. So in a lot of associations, the annual conference is the primary revenue driver for the association that kind of feeds everything else they do in the year,

[00:32:09] advocacy research certification. And I mean, that puts a lot of pressure on the events team. I know there are some organizations out there that over 90% of their revenue from the year comes from that like four day conference. Wow. 90%. Yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot. Is that the case for RIMS? Are you guys a little bit more diversified in your revenue streams? We're not 90%. That's for sure. But we are more like high 60s, low 70% on bringing revenue from the events side of things.

[00:32:40] And, you know, we are growing a certification right now. This takes decades really to build off. And ours is finally starting to pick up more and growing a bit more. It's going to be, I think, a sizable revenue stream for us in the future as it builds out. But right now it is event focused and diversifying revenue for any association. It's kind of difficult with products and tools and membership pieces. Right. So one of the things we're doing, unfortunately, we continue to look at adding new events that are around risk management, helping to create smaller communities, like I said, throughout the year.

[00:33:08] So that increases their reliance on event revenue, but maybe not as much on risk role as we, you know, as we currently have. Yeah. And we talked a little bit earlier about for event professionals who want to get into that more strategic role, to think bigger about the impact the event has on the organization, not just executing a very well profitable event. So what is something you think specifically association? I mean, this applies to corporate as well,

[00:33:36] but what do you think event professionals fundamentally misunderstand about the business they're actually in? Misunderstand about the business they're actually in. I think that the big one that springs to my mind is they don't understand possibly the community. It's creating the power of that community and how it's also propelling your associations, brand or corporate brand forward, how the brand engagement is happening. People have the positive brand exposure, the positive, you know,

[00:34:02] experience you need to deliver to people is very important to, to event strategy. I love that. And I, in the same conversation of that, you are very, very fortunate that your board and your leadership believes in the event and knows the impact it has on the broader organization and community of risk managers. Not everyone has that sort of support. So what advice would you give to an event person who maybe has a leadership or

[00:34:32] an executive that really just sees events as a transactional thing? Like we have people here, they show up, we built the community, we move on or we're having the event to drive the leads or drive the revenue. And they don't really look at the bigger impact the events are having on the company. Yeah, that's a great question. I'll tell you what I did earlier in my career and I felt that way as a certain organization. And I was going through the CMP stuff at the time and started talking about a post event report. I started thinking, well, that's really powerful.

[00:35:01] We're going to analyze so many things about different departments, right? Taking ownership of that as an event professional who's running the event and kind of getting marketing data analytics, getting membership engagement kind of numbers, the P&L and all that stuff for the event. Membership where it's coming from, where there's where people are coming from demographically, all that kind of stuff is important to understand about the event for so many different departments. So I really believe strongly in a good post event report that I think should be managed and overseen by the event professional who's leading the event or their team.

[00:35:30] And that's a powerful piece of information. It goes to PowerPoint or something like that to, to give to your leadership because they hear it is, but even without them asking, you know, to really show those connections and everything, right? Because if you're not asking, it doesn't mean they're not interested if you don't tell them what they know, what they need, what they could need to know. And they don't know they need to know it. Oh, for sure. And what are some of those things you would put in that post event? You mentioned maybe membership engagement data, but ultimately what story should they be telling to their leadership in that

[00:35:59] post event report that kind of highlights the fact that they're thinking more strategically about the event and not just 90% of people said they had a great time and they would come back. That would be probably too. It's a survey analytics. And there again, I go back to AI because, because, you know, your survey analytics would be raw data sometimes right now, depending on the system, you use and putting that into an AI tool and getting the actual percentages and demographics things that really show something, but also taking the extra step, not that's in the post event report, but to say,

[00:36:29] here's what we learned. Here's what we're going to do differently next year. Here's what I suggest we do differently next year. Show that. And it could be a suggestion for marketing or changing a date or whatever it may be, but have confidence in yourself to know the event and understand it and own it. And to feel, feel confident to make some suggestions to improve it going forward. Because I think events that don't constantly revisit themselves and analyze themselves and take, take the industry, take them by the horns are at risk of probably losing engagement and risk of not having communities,

[00:36:59] especially with changing generational demographics, you know, that could become obsolete. I completely agree. And as the CCO of your organization and overseeing risk world, what are some of the numbers that you're looking at from your events team in the post event report? Honestly, I'm a, I am a numbers guy. So a lot of it for me is how do we go off budget? Did we go off budget where it is? And also understanding the marketing behind it. Like what waves did we see? We compare it to previous years,

[00:37:28] obviously too. So I want to get a registration report for my team. It's got the current data for 26, but also includes 25, 24 and 23 to show where we were with us. We got from the show with numbers and headcount and, and revenue. Right. So for me, the revenue and expense side of things is very important, but also I think understanding those numbers too. We talked earlier on our previous conversation about first time attendees. Well, where are they coming from? Why, how do we get them right? Analyzing marketing promotions. I want to see what we spent and what the ROI on it was. Right.

[00:37:58] So stuff like that, I think it's helping you to be a little more strategic with what you're doing and not just say, you know, 92% of the attendees said they would return or whatever. Right. That's not really telling you anything. Right. Yeah, I agree. What is a metric in the industry that you think people are obsessed with, but doesn't actually tell us anything? Oh, that's interesting. That's a good one. And I'll say this and it's, I'll go both ways on this,

[00:38:25] but it's probably a room block metric because there are so many people that stay outside the block. And like, you don't understand the full value of my show. If you're only analyzing the heads and beds, right. Understanding the full impact on the destination, right. It could be landing fees, people that are surging in the hotel pickup, you know, over that period compared to previous years. Right. So I think that's, that's, that's a flawed system right now to say, I must pick up 25,000 room nights where to qualify for this discount or get this from the city or building. Right.

[00:38:52] So it needs to be a bigger conversation around how the revenue, how, how the economic impact really is hitting the city other than just head to the beds. Yeah. And when you were talking about comparing against previous years, do you just go back and look at say 23, 24, 25, or are you comparing Orlando to Orlando, new Orleans to Orlando, Atlanta to Atlanta? Like, cause your show cycles, and this is pretty true for most associations. You're going to go to the same city every five or six years, give or take.

[00:39:21] Are you comparing against the last time you were in that city or just the last five years? No, it's the last five years. Cause for us, the rotation is longer. It's like every 10 years. So for Philadelphia, for example, we were last there in 2017, different world, different people registering earlier back than not. We know they register so late, unfortunately. Right. Uh, which keeps me up at night for sure. Um, but yeah, so for us, it's just really the previous years and the weeks leading up to the show, what's coming in and how it's coming in, what marketing efforts are made and revenue and the head count, how that's,

[00:39:50] how that's trending over previous years. Yeah. Okay. Last couple of questions on this data side, I could talk to you for hours and hours, probably about this, but as we know, attendee behaviors have shifted a lot over COVID. They've shifted even further. We've talked a lot about, uh, late registrations and people are registering much later. What do you think is a big mistake that associations are kind of making right now that might cost them in the long run? Cause a lot is changing.

[00:40:17] And I don't know that a lot of associations are kind of keeping up. I don't know if I have a perfect answer for that, but when I think about the late registration, it's like, you know, it's like we're almost becoming reliant that they are going to come in those last two weeks and your numbers are going to be filled. You're going to make your, your numbers and everything. Right. I mean, what if that doesn't happen? Understanding too, what you, what you can do to get those late registrants to come in earlier? Like what, what is the reason they're waiting two weeks out to register these days? You know, I don't know if I fully understand that either, but how can you create more value for an earlier registration,

[00:40:47] get it out there a little bit earlier. And, um, you know, it just depends on to where you are. Like for us in Philadelphia, for example, we know a lot of people are training down from, from New York and, uh, Boston or up from DC and stuff like that. So they're going to wait more last minute. And we, we are aware of that probably. Right. But, you know, the last minute registration thing and counting on it coming in, I think this could be a mistake for the future. And I think you really have to understand or how we can get people to come into our fold much earlier. And are,

[00:41:13] is that last bit of marketing push really specific on just like the drivability and the train, like you're in Philly this year. So would you guys focus on everything that's within a hundred miles or a quick train ride to Philly? Is that your last big marketing strategy? That's part of the strategy. It's more of a direct marketing push. It's more of a direct marketing push to people within that sort of zip code range. In this case being, you know, Philadelphia, Delaware and Southern New Jersey. Um, so yeah, um, that is part, that's part of the strategy for sure. At the last minute.

[00:41:43] Interesting. I love that. Okay. All right. Last question. So I like to end every after show with something that we call the closed door truth. It's the conversation that happens after the meeting, when the deck is closed, the boards left the room and the real issue is still kind of sitting on the table. So Stuart, what is something that you think association leaders or event leaders specifically say privately that never actually makes it into the conversation?

[00:42:11] The first thing that springs to mind on that is a conversation more about the employee engagement with the event perhaps, right? So we tend to bring a lot of staff there, but they actually, are they creating the value of any of that? Are they the right person for some of these roles or replacing them on site? Right. I think that's a conversation we don't have a lot typically, but I think understanding how staffing more engaged, understand how the importance of the event and why they should be there and why they are putting in the roles. Like for example, we put some of ours, it's greater roles and registration, welcome to risk for all that kind of stuff. Right. But,

[00:42:41] but, um, I think, um, you know, what I've heard some places that have issues with people not showing up for assigned duties that are staff and things like that. I'm like, I staff engagement with the event is definitely a conversation. I want to have a bit deeper going forward. Yeah. I think that's an issue across the industry, not just an association, but even in corporate too, you know, you have salespeople who go out late and they're entertaining prospects and then they don't show up for their booth shifts in the morning or they do show up and you're like,

[00:43:11] you should absolutely not be here. Please go. Exactly. Right. I think that is, or, you know, there's some roles that are just less extroverted. Like, should they be at the, the greeting at registration? Is that the right place for them? Um, I think that's a great point. And a lot of companies use going to their big annual conferences or going to trade shows as sort of a reward system. I've seen that too. I've seen places that do that as well, but honestly,

[00:43:40] the truth is not everybody wants to go. People don't have a direct role with the event. I believe that are people most of our association, everybody touches risk world in some capacity, but some much less than others. Right. And not everybody wants to, wants to go. They could have children at home or they just not fully engaged with the show. So why make them go? You know? I completely agree. They're just going to be disgruntled from the beginning. Like, I don't want to be here anyway. They'll find any way to not be there basically. Uh, well, Stuart,

[00:44:09] thank you so much for joining event about it in the after show. I mean, this has been an incredible conversation. So many great nuggets for people to learn from, and especially for those event professionals or event marketers ready to get into that strategic role. And, uh, you said the one word that has become the theme of all episodes recently, and that is curious. And you have stayed very curious. That's how you've, uh, ultimately success into this C-suite role and thought beyond event logistics.

[00:44:38] And I think it's a great takeaway. And we hear that from almost every guest that's coming on. And that is being curious and open and trying to expand skills and opportunities for yourself. So thank you so much for going deeper into that conversation. Sure. I just want to add one more thing. I just want to mention too. I think when you look at an event too, it's like, you can't, you can't rest on your laurels, but every year we say this is the best risk world ever because every year must be every year. Your event must be the best one it's ever been.

[00:45:07] You have to keep raising the bar and changing things up. Right. I think that's an important thing that to be more strategic, you have to understand too. So. Well, I think that's a great place to leave it. Thanks for tuning in to another event about it after show, because the best conversations always start after the show ends. Until next time, stay curious.