Is Zero-Click Search the End of Event SEO?

[00:00:06] Hey everybody, welcome back to Event About It, the Dynamic Dialogue After Show. I'm your host, Megan Martin. I am here today with Laura Davidson. And for anyone just joining us in the after show, I owe you a quick introduction. Laura co-founded Tag Digital out of Glasgow in 2011 with her husband, Craig, on a business plan that they wrote because he hated his job and they wanted to do something different. It nearly didn't make it. They even talked about moving to Canada at one point.

[00:00:35] But instead of folding up shop, they narrowed the entire company into one industry and that is EVENT. Fast forward, she sold the company to Freeman and has also taught digital marketing at the Digital Marketing Institute, publishing original benchmark research for the event marketing industry. She's hosted a podcast, produced her own events. She's done basically everything and sat in all of the seats. So welcome, Laura. I cannot wait to get into the conversation today.

[00:01:05] Laura Davidson So many things. Because you have worn a lot of hats. Laura Davidson Yeah, when you say it like that. I mean, sometimes I think I've done the same job, but actually you're right. And I'd forgotten about the Canada thing. So thanks for the reminder. Laura Davidson Well, I mean, I would love to have you in North America and a little closer. Laura Davidson Oh, for sure. Laura Davidson Oh, for sure. Laura Davidson Oh, for sure. Laura Davidson Oh, for sure. Laura Davidson Maybe one day you'll end up in the US. Who knows? Laura Davidson Maybe, maybe.

[00:01:30] Laura Davidson Well, first place I kind of want to start is running your own event. So if I remember correctly, you were producing your own event in Dubai. And so what did that teach you about like working with your clients? Did it change perspective? Because sitting in the organizer seat is a very different than helping organizers run programs.

[00:01:51] Laura Davidson It was absolutely the best thing that we did to really understand our customers. So we Expo 2020 was like this huge kind of global event that was happening in Dubai, it got delayed with COVID. But we were lucky enough to be at the UK Pavilion in Dubai, which was this amazing, amazing building. And so that was 2022, I think it was. And we hosted in Dubai, we maybe had about 100 people there.

[00:02:20] Laura Davidson We had Google there, we had Google there, we had TikTok there, like it was a really great event. And I think understanding our clients' fear, because we would run event campaigns every single day for our clients and they'd be like, I don't have enough registrations, we're four weeks out. And we'd be like, it's fine, it's fine. It always gets there in the end. But to actually be the one sitting there like, no, you don't understand, it's going to be an empty room, no one's going to show up, it's going to be so bad, like was such a different perspective.

[00:02:50] Like, you know, the event day isn't moving, you know, all of these things in your rational mind when you're running the campaigns, but sitting on the other side was a really, really good experience. And I've never forgotten that. Laura Davidson We then also took Digitex launched in Dubai in 2022. And then we kind of took it on the road and we did Digitex Moments, which was like a smaller series of events.

[00:03:13] Laura Davidson We did Dubai again, London, I think DC, Chicago and New York. And we, it was really different again, because we were launching really in some of these places where we didn't have as big of a customer base. Laura Davidson So that made it pretty tough. And then we've done London another couple of times as well. So we're doing London again this year in October, and I should really know the date, but I'll share it afterwards.

[00:03:41] Laura Davidson So yeah, so we've learned every single time. And you iterate, but it is still hard to market an event when all you do is market events. It's different when it's yourself. Laura Davidson Oh, absolutely. Is there something that you changed or different perspective that you bring to your work now that you've started running your own programs?

[00:04:01] Laura Davidson I think just the, the empathy is there on a different level. And I think just, I think guiding clients better on like what those curves look like. So here's where you can expect to be at this point and this point and this point. Laura Davidson And we're going to be concerned if we're here, but actually for here it's okay. And I think just really spelling that out for people and not assuming, oh, we know when we get to the final four weeks, it goes crazy.

[00:04:29] So I think especially when we see maybe younger or newer people coming into the event industry, or they're launching an event, really guiding them on that whole process. And I think that's helped us just build confidence with our clients as they go through and things like, you know,

[00:04:48] Laura Davidson We always say start earlier. If it's a launch, you know, have a little bit more budget. Ideally, these kinds of things we see it play out in real time. So I think just guiding the clients on that and having lived that experience, we see, and you know, when we've not done that, is it simple? Laura Davidson Yeah, I think you build some trust and empathy with clients because you're like, no, I'm not just telling you this because that's what the data tells us. Like I've lived it. I get it.

[00:05:16] Laura Davidson I think that adds a level of like trust and what's the word I'm looking for, like professionality, like because you are living in the same shoes as them. So I think it's great. Laura Davidson Oh yeah. And there's camaraderie in it as well. Like I think now that we've really learned it, I think it helps us. Very good exercise.

[00:05:36] Laura Davidson Yeah. Credibility is the word I was looking for because you're walking in the same shoes as them, not just telling people what to do. So knowing all the campaigns that you've run, I mean, thousands of them around the world. Is there a pattern that shows up time and time again? You know, maybe not just a single show, but a repeat pattern you see across all programs?

[00:05:58] Laura Davidson Yeah. I mean, the obvious one is late registration like that just comes into every single campaign doesn't matter how much the ticket is doesn't matter where it is in the world like that's getting progressively later.

[00:06:14] Laura Davidson Walk-ups are becoming more common in certain countries as well. I think it's, it's again, just guiding people through that process and preparing for that to happen and not resting everything like it's going to be fine. But I think that decision making and I've seen new people come into the industry and they're like, Oh, this is crazy. This last minute registration.

[00:06:35] Laura Davidson We must spread it out. I'm like, yep, we'd love to, we'd love to, but it just, it's human nature. It's late decision making. We don't do anything until the deadline. Like we try and we, you know, you smooth out to an extent, but it's, it's just a thing that I think we have to accept.

[00:06:53] Laura Davidson And then the other thing I'd say is a shift that I've seen happen with certain clients. Like they're thinking about investing more in brand awareness, strategies, memorable, creative, and they're taking a slightly longer term approach.

[00:07:10] Laura Davidson And as they're doing that, their businesses are really growing and their brands are really growing, but it's not typical within events. It's typical to do a very performance driven 12, 16 week cycle. You know, we spend as much as we can to get as many registrations in for a short period of time, but actually the, the events that we see that are taking that three year approach are really pulling away from the rest of the crowd.

[00:07:38] Laura Davidson So if you can get the investment and the buy-in and the longer term thinking, I think the long-term benefits for those events are really paying off in terms of ROI. Laura Davidson And walk me through what that looks like a three year campaign versus 12 or 14 or 16 week. Like what does that strategy even look like? Laura Davidson So they're thinking about their events as a brand that they need to grow and they need to stand out amongst everyone else.

[00:08:03] Laura Davidson So over the course of the year, they're running always on campaigns, whether that's content, whether it's community building, whether it's just like sort of brand messaging. So we're not spending at a high level. It's almost like we're spending like this and then we'll have a spike at different points in the year, really when the events or some other key moment is.

[00:08:25] Laura Davidson So a B2B audience is really only in market for 5% of the year, the rest of the 95%, they're just kind of like going about their business. Laura Davidson So in that 95% of the year, you want to be top of mind. You want to be the first person they think of when they think like, who's a big pharmaceutical event in North America? Who's the best security event in the Middle East? Laura Davidson Like you need to be there and in a room when somebody is making a case for going to an event.

[00:08:52] Laura Davidson The biggest question that kind of will unite that group of decision makers is, have I heard of this? And if the CEO or the sales director, the marketing director has not heard of the event, the chance of it getting funded is tiny. Laura Davidson Whereas if everyone's heard of it, even if they think the event is terrible, you're more likely to get the funding.

[00:09:14] Laura Davidson So I say all of that to say that that investment and thinking of the event as a brand, and you're building that brand over a long period of time, it slowly becomes top of mind. Laura Davidson And that just increases all the purchasing decisions, whether that's to exhibit, to sponsor, to attend, whatever the thing is. Laura Davidson And the ROI is much better. So it's harder to measure. It takes longer. Nobody wants to hear that. Laura Davidson But if you're prepared to go on that journey, the benefit is definitely there.

[00:09:43] Laura Davidson And what are some of those check-in points? Because obviously you're not planning a three-year strategy kind of all at once. Laura Davidson So you have like a sort of end zone, you know the season and how it's going to go. Laura Davidson Yeah. Laura Davidson So there are so much changes in three years. I mean, looking back even just three years ago to where we are now, it's completely disrupted. So what are those checkpoints and adjustments you're making on a three-year strategy? Laura Davidson Yeah. So we'll still have big goals to hit in that year.

[00:10:12] So say the event trades every year, we're still going to have attendance goals, exhibitor lead gen goals, and content. Laura Davidson Something tangible that we can say, we got these things. Laura Davidson I would say the difference is you're saying, okay, instead of spending like 2% or 6% on brand awareness, maybe spend like 15% or 20% of that budget. Laura Davidson Whatever we want to define within that budget will run alongside performance.

[00:10:41] Laura Davidson So it's not like we're saying, oh, we'll just spend on brand for three years and kind of cross our fingers. Laura Davidson We'll still have registration and attendance goals. Laura Davidson Every year of that three-year plan, they'll be increasing. Laura Davidson But the biggest metric that they're looking at is return on investment. Laura Davidson So within that three-year time period, and we work to increase the exhibitor spend, the attendees spend, the VIP packages.

[00:11:05] Laura Davidson So really the biggest success metric is return on investment, which should be growing incrementally each year. Laura Davidson And then at the end of the year, the three-year period will have some kind of big goal that we're looking to meet. So that kind of thinking. And then like obviously we have different teams who are helping the client maybe with the experience or the broader strategy or getting Gen Z and something like that, as well as your overall digital strategy. Laura Davidson Yeah, I love that.

[00:11:35] And I think one of the things, you definitely have talked about this a lot, it's changing quite a bit with AI coming, and that's zero click. And just for the short version, very quickly, the textbook version. So a zero click search is when somebody's asking a question, like you go to Google and you type in a question, and you get the answer right there on the page or from the AI assistant, cloud, chat, GPT, whatever.

[00:11:59] But you never actually click on anything to go to a website or a social post or anything like that. Just a couple of stats that I pulled here. The first four months of this year, 68% of Google searches in the U.S. ended without a single click. So that's almost 70% of people searching for stuff and never clicking on anything. And for context, two years ago, that was under 60%.

[00:12:26] So in two years, we've gone up like 10% in zero click. So what does that actually mean for a company like yours that is so focused on digital? And you said attribution is getting messier, and part of that is because of zero click. Oh, totally. Yeah, and I think that's a great stat that you quoted. I think that was from the SEM Rush research. And I think it's a couple of things.

[00:12:54] So the first thing is we're almost going back to traditional marketing. So we're running ads. We're not really expecting someone to do something like in that moment. But going back to what we're talking about earlier, we're increasing that overall brand awareness. Because what happens is when somebody searches something in an LLM and they get a result, in their head, they've done more research than they actually have.

[00:13:21] So they think, oh, I've really well researched this because this has gone through all these different algorithmic sort of changes and this is the result. So the research has been done. So by that point, they're kind of ready to make a decision and they will register for something. So if you've been investing in brand awareness and they're like, we've heard of this company and you pop up in the LLM, they'll probably make that decision pretty quickly.

[00:13:48] Whereas before, we would have all these different touch points. Really, those touch points have collapsed into one, two, maybe three. So what it means for us is, again, we're investing in brand. Creative strategy is driving so much of this because if it's not memorable, we just forget it. Decent creative strategy, LLM optimization, which is part of the work that we're doing with clients. We're running ChatGPT ads. We're doing all of those things.

[00:14:17] So for us, it's just an additional channel, really. But the behaviour is more like traditional marketing. And then I think the piece that everyone's still trying to figure out is, how do we actually measure this? So we're looking at things like non-branded query mentions. We're looking at referral traffic. But really, overall, is that big number going up and then it's working? And if it's not, we have an issue and we're not showing up.

[00:14:46] So the last thing I'll say on this that I thought was really interesting was, hopefully we get this right. When citations are coming up in an LLM, there was a piece of research that was done to say like the first four that are coming up, on page 21 of Google search results. So what you're finding now is that the relevance to the user query is so much better.

[00:15:15] Like we're not going to hunt through, you know, blue links anymore. And actually, if you've got the right content going to the right user, you can circumvent a lot of work that you would have historically had to do in terms of SEO. So really knowing what those queries are, writing content like it's nothing. It's nothing new either. Like marketers know this. It's decent content for your audience, not writing for the machines. And then I think that's where you really start to get the benefits.

[00:15:42] So it's been an interesting channel, but having run a search agency for a decade, my Google search has decreased 3% maybe. So I need an answer. I'm a busy lady. I mean, I think you make a good point that it really is not any different. I mean, if you're putting out good, relevant content that is for your target audience, it's always going to outperform something generic written for a bot.

[00:16:11] I mean, you don't have to try to work the system. If you just work marketing the way it's intended to be worked, you get the result. Yeah, I think so. And there's little things you do on the site in terms of tech updates. But once you've done all those things, it's getting content velocity. And I think AI can help with the right oversight. But you need to have a lot of content coming out to make sure that you're competing because content is getting very easy to produce. Quality content, high velocity.

[00:16:41] And it's a thing where you win. Yeah, I would agree with that. And what about some new channels? So I've been reading a lot recently about like TV spend. So like with all the streaming services, it's actually cheaper to buy, you know, ads on some of the streaming services or even in the mobile apps. Like this is big in consumer brands, you know, getting advertising on like the apps and Instagram. And I'm seeing more events using those channels.

[00:17:11] What are your thoughts on advertising an event off through like a Netflix show or something like that? It's really funny because I get served them all the time. I'm like, oh, that's a good one. And I think what's changed and what before this stuff just wasn't accessible to event marketing budgets, like it just wasn't realistic, like out of home was barely accessible.

[00:17:32] Whereas what's happened now is platforms like DB360 and StackAdapt and all the networks we use, you can tap into that inventory all in the one place. So you can advertise on Disney, you can advertise on Hulu, you can do your out of home, you can have like your standard desktop all in the one infrastructure.

[00:17:53] And that used to be a really complex kind of buying and supply chain system, whereas now it's much more accessible for all agencies to do that. So I think it's brought down the price. Connected TV is still pretty expensive, I would say. Like you're maybe talking like, I don't know, 35 upwards dollar CPM, probably 50 for something that's high quality.

[00:18:20] And that's about the price point we're seeing for ChatGPT ads as well. It's very high premium inventory because there's like, it's not, there's not tons in there. It's very high intent. So you'll maybe pay a little bit more, but you can still reach it within an event marketing budget. So I would put that as part of the brand strategy. I would have it running. It's not expecting that you're going to get someone stopping watching their, you know, Disney or Netflix show and be like, I'm going to register right in the middle of this show. Like they won't.

[00:18:50] But what we can then measure is, well, was there an uplift? And we have some really, you know, super fancy things we can do with incrementality studies or geolocation. And we say, okay, how do you measure things that are really hard to measure? Well, we only ran ads in TV in Belgium for that one week. And we saw an uplift. Stuff like that. Like it's again, a bit more traditional, but there are ways to measure. I think it's holding your nerve with some of those campaigns. Like it can be anything awareness, hard to measure is first to get cut.

[00:19:19] If somebody doesn't understand that longer term strategy. So some of it's holding your nerve and having a little budget for innovation. I think that's how you make them work. Yeah, agreed. One thing you mentioned was AI is making it easier to generate content. And you were on another podcast recently where you said AI generated content is everywhere, but humans are flawed. And that's what builds real trust. And we're seeing this in the events world, right?

[00:19:47] People are flocking to events because they want to be in the room. That's the only way to know something like really happened or someone really said something. So what does humans are flawed and building trust mean for you? And where does that show up in a campaign? I love that. We are, we don't like perfection. Like perfection is uninteresting. And I think some of the content that AI generates, it's too perfect. The grammar is so good.

[00:20:14] And it's like, we don't, we don't speak like that. Somebody who'd like always type in shorthand suddenly has this, you know, phenomenal command of vocabulary. And I think what we relate to is people who are real, who make mistakes when they communicate, who say the wrong thing, who fluff words. Like we, if it's too perfect, it makes it really hard to be relatable. So we use AI every single day for lots of different things.

[00:20:41] And we've elevated a lot of our manual work and workflows. But the human connection is the most important things at events, in our office, getting our team together, seeing our clients. Like all of those things is what truly builds trust. And I don't think you do it on a little Zoom screen or, you know, perfect emails back and forth.

[00:21:05] I think we live in such a connected but lonely world sometimes that a big importance on in person and use AI simultaneously. So I think that's probably my biggest learning is humans are complex, but that's what makes them great. Yeah, I agree. Where's the line on what you're going to let AI do and what you'll never let AI touch?

[00:21:33] Ah, good question. I'm looking for it currently to be like, can it sign up to all subscriptions for like household things? I don't have to ever think about that. Probably letting go of agents doing things like booking my travel. Like I'm definitely not there yet. I think I would like to get there. I think I probably will. That's something that I've not done.

[00:21:58] We have agents that are running, which are getting more freedom, but there's always the human control. Like we would never have something without human oversight. I think if I'm writing a piece of content personally that's coming from me, I would want to keep that something that I write and I enjoy doing that. But most other things are pretty fair game for me, I would say. As long as it's got the oversight, it would be a caveat.

[00:22:24] Yeah, I think human in the loop is always going to be important when we're talking about AI. I mean, they still hallucinate and they're not perfect yet. But we are not far away from agents talking to agents. And like you said, booking travel. I was reading an article the other day that some of the big box hotel brands are working on doing just that. So like, can you go into JGPT or Claude and just book a hotel room or a flight? Which seems wild to me. I'm not there yet either.

[00:22:55] Yeah, the other thing I was at a session recently and it was really talking about how we're using AI still very much like tasks and workflows. But actually, if we reimagine how it works, we can eliminate hierarchy in many organizations because hierarchy is really knowledge and experience. Whereas actually, if you say you can give that context to your AI, you kind of can change decision making. And I don't think I've seen many organizations who are there.

[00:23:24] But in theory, that's where we could get to in the next few years. Yeah, that's super. I mean, how do you feel about that? Like flattening out an organization? I mean, that excites me because I think people want to be individual contributors and middle management is really tough place to be. So, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Like flattening an organization because of AI? I think it's really exciting.

[00:23:49] And I think you can't just do the same work without changing something within the kind of overarching structure. Where I struggle, and I don't think anyone's got an answer for this yet, is, okay, we say human in the loop. They say, do you know what? We don't need all these VPs and SVPs. And these junior people, they've actually got all the same information we have. And the AI can help them make decisions. The reason that you get to certain seniority is just lived experience.

[00:24:18] Like there's no shortcut to all of that. But when you get to that stage, you can say, okay, I know this is not true what the AI is saying, or I wouldn't make that call because of this thing. You might be right or wrong, but you have the experience that you have a reason for doing that. Whereas I think if you flatten an organization, you remove the hierarchy and anyone can make a decision at any level, how does that person know if it's good or bad? And that might just be a question now.

[00:24:45] And in three years, we're like, well, they know they have more information and the AIs can make that call. But that's the part that I struggle with because we will lose that lived experience the more the AIs make the decisions. So I'm interested to see where it goes. But yeah, I can't imagine how we get to that lived experience piece. Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree with that. It's an exciting and scary world to see where AI is going.

[00:25:13] And it's moving faster than I think any of us are really prepared for at this point. The speed of change is remarkable right now. Is the speed of change? Oh, yeah, sorry. No, go ahead. I was going to say the volume of work that we do. Like the one thing I think is an interesting sort of point is I think we thought, oh, yeah, it's going to give us all this time back. And we're going to be going for like a massage at 1030 in the morning.

[00:25:41] Like, actually, we've just done more work in less time. And we're doing more and more and more. Like these huge things are happening all of the time. So I actually think everyone's like more frazzled than they were because they're doing a lot more work. I completely agree. I think we're going to end up burning ourselves out more. I think burnout is going to become more of an issue moving forward because we are capable of doing faster work now and doing more volume of work because of AI. It's not slowing us down as humans.

[00:26:11] It's actually going to burn us out more. Okay, let's go back to events. Something more exciting. So one thing you've talked a lot about it, and I agree with you completely, that consumer brands have really figured out like influencer marketing. And I recently put out a podcast episode breaking down the differences between like a thought leader, an influencer, and a content creator.

[00:26:35] We use those terms very interchangeably, but they are three very different buckets in how they approach content and their reach and what they do. And where do you think, one, why are B2B events so behind when it comes to like ambassador programs and influencer marketing? And how do we start catching up to that? Like, why are we late to the game and how do we fix it? I think, first of all, we're late to the game.

[00:27:03] I think B2B always lags because B2C knows who they're speaking to at an individual level. And so they have their people and this is who they are and they see them as individuals. Whereas B2B see them like as companies or as like functions or titles. And actually, we miss the individuality. So I think it always takes a bit of time to catch up because we think we know who we're speaking to.

[00:27:31] But say everyone at MDG, like we're all very different. We're individual people. We might have different jobs, but we're completely individual people. So I think B2B can kind of miss that nuance and it's a bit more blanket. And we spend less in general for a much bigger industry. So B2B, I can't remember the stats. It's like 1.6 trillion. But our spending is like six times less than consumer.

[00:27:56] But then when we look at trends, if we want to call it that, I don't think thought leader is really a trend. It's just been in different guises. But we're now seeing our B2B events are catching up to thought leaders and having content creators. And they understand the power of that. It's taken a bit longer to get there. But the results that we're seeing are just amazing because these are still kind of disruptive within the space.

[00:28:24] We're also now seeing things like LinkedIn are bringing out thought leader ads and they're bringing out things where we can put our thought leaders in the ads. And the thing that I see shifting or maybe opening our minds up a little bit more about is thought leaders aren't just, you know, people who thought leaders. And I'm probably interchanging this a little bit, but it's not someone who creates content for a job.

[00:28:49] It could be your employees, your speakers, your sponsors, like who's connected to the industry that has a point of view and bringing those people in rather than thinking in a more formulaic influencer, which is maybe more typical for B2C. Yeah, I would agree with that. So walk me through what a good ambassador like influencer program looks like in the B2B space, because you guys, you and MDG specifically run some really great programs around this concept.

[00:29:17] So walk us through what does this look like and what are they paying for? Like, are you paying them directly? Are you just comping badges? Like, what's the investment and the expected outcome of a very well run program? Yeah, we do have an amazing job. Influencer department run by Sarah Fellows and her team, and they're so creative. And I think there's different versions of these programs that would run.

[00:29:43] And where I see from our vantage point, where it works really well is a partnership approach with the client to get the right type of person. It's not biggest in the space. It's the person that works the best for your audience. And they've got some great tools that sort of unearth those creators. Then it's carving out a unique experience for them at the event.

[00:30:06] So giving them something that's going to be worthy of creating content that feels organic, that feels authentic, and making space for them to do that. Making sure like I was at an event recently and we've got a kind of dedicated creator space at the event. And then we've got a lot of people who are in the event that we've got to do. And we've got a lot of people who are in the event that we've got to do that. So make that frictionless. And then agreements, like that's not really my purview, but it can be different things. It can be an experience. It can be payment.

[00:30:34] It can be different things depending on who they are and what they're contracted to do. The one thing that I would always recommend is making sure that you have usage rights for the content in marketing campaigns and definitely in paid campaigns because we can amplify that. And when we take that kind of user-generated content with the right person and put a bit of budget behind it, we are seeing just incredible results.

[00:30:58] We shared a case study from a beauty event recently and it just worked better than anything we've done for the last three years. So making sure that that's in the contracts. Amazing. And when you say worked better than expected, like what did those results look like? Are we talking brand awareness, conversions? Like what are we measuring? What does that look like? It's conversion. So I think this, it was something like, and don't quote me on this, I'll find it.

[00:31:25] It was like a 49% reduction in the cost per acquisition than any other video that we were running. So it's getting direct registrations. Not that we would all, it's really hard to plan for those, I would say. So like we, we can plan on certain channels, the overall, but to say that content creator with that video for that event will drive this is pretty hard to do. But it outperformed every channel, every piece of content. And then the clients look to replicate that over other events.

[00:31:55] So yeah, you're still looking for registrations probably, but just maybe a little harder to predict. Yeah. Yeah. And how do you pick the right people to be in this program? So what, where should someone start if they're trying to identify who, who should be in their ambassador program and start doing content? How do you even identify the right person? Because it's not always the person with the biggest following. Yeah, it's definitely an art form.

[00:32:25] We have some great tools as well, which I get, that's not something I do, but we have an amazing team that does that. So they will use tooling. They'll work with the client. They'll look at who their target audience is and they'll sort of filter that down. But usually when we're at kind of early stage, like scoping or proposal, we'll be like, we're kind of thinking this. Is this about right? And we'll get some direction, but yeah, there's definitely some good platforms that help you identify. And then I think it's about the individual as well.

[00:32:53] Like, is their communication good? Are they getting back to us? Does the contract look legit? It's things like just basic kind of partner agreements that have to work early on, or you might run the risk of getting the content or chasing them for things. And I think it's just making sure their relationship is as strong as making sure they're the right person. Well, shifting gears just a little bit. We talked about in the intro that you sold Tag Digital to Freeman, now part of MDG.

[00:33:22] So I don't want to necessarily get into the selling piece of it. But one thing I think most people don't talk about is the migration of when you sell and integrate into a larger company. And I'm really, really curious, like culturally, how did that work for you? So obviously, Scottish, UK based agency now working for an American based company. Culturally, what does that look like?

[00:33:47] And mentally for you being the CEO and running a company and then folding into another one, that's a mental shift for you. So walk me through the migration of the sell. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the reason for the acquisition really was we had great cultural fit with MDG. So we were agency people. We all spoke the same language. Like we understood each other really well. And then migrating into Freeman.

[00:34:15] So I think it's been a little easier for us because we're migrating into like a 120 person company. We still have Freeman integrations that we're doing as well. So, again, it's a family owned business. It was very much supportive as we were doing all of those things. I think culturally, so culturally as businesses, we were really similar. And I think we also had worked like maybe 50 percent of our revenue was in North America for a long time. We'd had a lot of American clients.

[00:34:45] We'd spent periods of time in the US. We were there multiple times a year. So that wasn't wildly different. I think it's just you learn different things about each other, like the deeper you get into the culture. And one of the things I always love about our US colleagues and clients is everything is very early. So we're early. Everyone's out and about. They're running. They're doing the gym in the morning. And then when we do happy hours, dinners, like it's all over really early.

[00:35:14] And that's a cultural thing that I've absolutely loved and is here for because I'm not a late night person. And so I've always appreciated that. Everything's very efficient as well. And we have a lot of fun. Like we work with very funny, very smart, very creative people. And so our team and their team are getting to know each other. Are you okay? And are you outside of the business?

[00:35:38] But we've also been extremely intentional about putting culture the front and center of what we do. So we have like get to know you's. We do something called Pecha Kucha, which is like 20 slides all about a topic. And we do that every week. Very, very topics. Every week. Holy cow. Every week. So I think we've maybe done like 20. We've done more than 20. I don't know how many we've done. Probably about 30.

[00:36:03] And so it can be on topics from like bumblebees to whiskey to climbing to sports teams to Taylor Swift to Real Housewives, like whatever you want. And I think when you see each other as people and you understand somebody, like there's going to be business challenges. There's going to be things that come up when you see each other as people. Those kind of things are hugely important.

[00:36:30] And then we've had our US team in the UK and vice versa. We're going over for a full all hands in December. So in person time trumps almost everything that we do. And so we've we've been supportive of doing that. And I think I'm a really strong leadership team who is aligned. Everyone else kind of follows suit. Yeah, agreed.

[00:36:53] And for you being founder, CEO and then folding into the team, not really running the full show anymore. What was that like for you? Yeah, I know. I was like, oh, I'm an employee now, right? I better pay attention and put holidays in and things like that, which I'd never really done before. I think we still have a lot of autonomy to do certain things. So we were acquired because we brought value to the business.

[00:37:18] And so whilst there's different process things you need to step into, the biggest thing is, are we aligned as a leadership team? And each of us have our own areas that we can run and support each other. Not say that everyone agrees on every single thing, but we all have our lanes that we say, OK, we can run this thing. And it's whoever's decision, whether that's me or Sean or Caitlin, Alison, to make that call, we're able to do that in the group.

[00:37:47] And I think that's allowed it to feel still like we're bringing value. We have latitude, but make sure that we're doing all the expenses and things like that, which we were doing anyway. But on time. For sure. I imagine it probably was nice to have some bigger resources, like folding into a bigger company, you know, more brain powered, more infrastructure.

[00:38:12] Oh, yeah. I mean, the business has grown phenomenally because we have this team, this much bigger group around us. And you can send someone a quick Teams note and be like, oh, so you're working on this. Let's talk. Or there's moments where we can, you know, share what we're doing to a much larger organization on the client side. And so I think just having access to that, even things like the research, we didn't have budget to do things like that before.

[00:38:40] And that's a real value add to the client. So MDG, we're in and that's where we spend the majority of our time. But Freeman as well. We just did our leadership conference there. And it's just it's an amazing business full of just incredible people. And so things, things like that, the in-person moments where you see the scale of the business and what we're trying to get after is just an amazing thing. And it made complete sense for us. I love that.

[00:39:10] And what is something you would tell a founder who is thinking about selling and going through a migration similar, folding into a larger company? Like what piece of advice would you give them? Yeah, I think every business has to have an end point, whatever that end point is. So it's either an exit or it gets passed on to a family member or it doesn't work.

[00:39:34] So you need to think about what do you want that end point for your business to be and think about what moment that should be. So I think to be able to take a business to a certain scale and then be able to sell it is a great thing and rare for a lot of businesses to get there. So if you get the opportunity and it's got to make sense culturally would be my biggest thing.

[00:39:59] So if you have any doubts about who you're getting in with, it's like a marriage, you know, it's a business partnership on a very deep level. So you need to be sure about that business because you're essentially selling your baby that you've grown for 10, 20 years probably at that stage.

[00:40:20] And I think just having an open mind to you need to do what's best for the business once you're in and you're doing the migration because things are going to change. So accept things are going to change, let go of the small stuff that doesn't matter and try to get an understanding as quickly as you can because you don't get an onboarding the same way an employee would slightly different. It's just go straight in, but we've figured it out.

[00:40:45] Yeah. Well, speaking of marriage, we kind of hinted already that you started tag with your husband, Craig. And I'm just curious what it feels like to work with your spouse every single day, because there are a lot of people who couldn't do that. So what are some of the like guardrails? Did you have like a we don't talk about work after eight o'clock Sundays are no work talk like where?

[00:41:09] And did you have even those hard conversations of like this is how this is going to work personally and professionally? It's funny. It's the biggest thing people ask me about. They're like, how do you work with your husband? I could never. But actually, I think like early on, like your goals are aligned like you want the same thing. You want the business to be successful. You want to keep it growing. I think you're kind of aligned there. You can shortcut a lot of conversation.

[00:41:36] So, you know each other obviously very well. You're honest, probably to a fault. And so feedback is real. And that's a great thing because you're not, not that you're not trying to protect someone's feelings. You're not always professionalizing everything. You're just saying it as it is. So I think that's good. Did we have those hard conversations? No, I think it just sort of organically became I was more on the client facing side.

[00:42:05] He was more on the team. And as the business started to grow at the beginning, we just both did everything. And then that just became our more natural fits. And then now in terms of rules, like we work all the time. Like I still feel like a founder energy. Like we work all the time, whatever clients in our team need. During the week, at the weekend, we have three kids as well. So that is our family time.

[00:42:32] Not that we won't talk about work, but I aim to not work on the weekend unless it's like prepping something on a Sunday for Monday. But generally that is our family time. But I would say work every evening and that suits me. But I leave the office early. We both do spend time with the kids, do dinner, bath and bed and then start again in the evening. So it works. But yeah, it consumes every single part of you. Like there's no, there's no way that it doesn't.

[00:43:02] I'm sure there were moments of like hard conversations, like especially early and pivoting into specifically just working on events. And how do you manage some of those hard conversations with your spouse while, you know, protecting personal time too? Yeah. I think we just, we just work through whatever the conversation is.

[00:43:27] Like I should say as well, our first employee, Alex, who's our head of technology today. Like he's always been sort of like there as like our third person. So maybe if we can agree with something, he's like very philosophical and would be able to straighten it out. We've definitely ridden tough times. Like we like COVID obviously, like everybody, we lost 95% of our revenue within a few weeks. We've lost employees, clients, like those are really, really tough moments.

[00:43:55] And it's people that are like family to you. But then we've had incredible highs as well, you know, with our team, with our clients, with our new business. There's now so ups and downs, but I think doing it together and being really honest about it is good. But then you will, you will be more honest than you might be with others, which it could cause an argument and does. Yeah, I'm sure.

[00:44:23] Well, I also can imagine having to ride some of the tough times, like especially COVID, starting the business, losing staff and clients, you know. Just think about my own personal life and there's honestly nobody else I would trust and want to go through that and like have those like raw vulnerable moments within my significant other. And almost a relief to have that person next to you having to go through that because you really don't have to sugarcoat it.

[00:44:50] Like you can be authentically yourself and just be like this effing suck right now. And you probably wouldn't say that to anybody else. No. And like they know without you having to explain it. So I see sometimes my friends or siblings will come home and they just can't be bothered to go over the whole thing that happened that day. So they'll maybe like go a little bit quiet or be a little bit irritable. Whereas usually we kind of know what's been going on.

[00:45:18] So we can be like there's a depth of understanding that you don't need to then explain everything again or they don't have the context for it. So I think that helps. And but yeah, you trust you trust someone at like the deepest level. So it makes it it makes it super easy. Amazing. OK, well, as we wrap up the after show, I close every show with a curiosity card. So you get to pick like pink, a purple or like blue, yellow. The purple. Purple. OK.

[00:45:49] What exciting project personal or professional has you fired up right now? Hmm. I think two things. We are working on company brains, but for our clients. So we've done them for ourselves. We've done them for a couple of clients.

[00:46:11] But like imagine you could just document every single thing in your business over 10, 20, 30 years and use AI to sort all of that data, ask it any question and just take away the sort of repetitiveness. So we're working on those on a much bigger scale than we have done historically. I'm really excited about doing that. And personally, I'm running. I love to run. And so I'm doing an ultramarathon, which is in February.

[00:46:40] And I need to really get focused on what my training looks like because I'm still carrying an injury from that race from last year. So. I'm going to get my strength. What is an ultramarathon and how do you even start preparing for that? I know. So an ultramarathon is a 50 kilometer, anything over a marathon distance, which is 42. So it's only 50. It's not like it's like 100 or anything. OK. Yeah. And then last year. Only 50. Just no big deal. Only 50.

[00:47:08] But I turned 40 in July. And in my 40th year, I was like, I'm going to run an ultramarathon. And it was a trail race, which is like you could run over mud or sand or water. So it was quite it was quite a fun race. Like maybe that's type B fun, type A fun. I forget what the thing is. Anyway, I only gave myself seven weeks to prepare for it last year. And I was like, this is great. I've got no injuries. And then I ran it and got a bit injured. And I'm still sort of working through that. So this year, I'm going to train properly. I'm going to do all the strength.

[00:47:38] And then I'm going to run it again in March or February. I forget. I should check that. But it's as fun as running 50 kilometers could be. So yeah. And so you started at seven weeks of training. How much time are you going to give yourself this time? I think like probably I want to start strength now because I think that was why I got injured was I was doing too much running, not enough strength. I'll start that now and then give myself like a decent 16 week block for the actual run

[00:48:07] because I think it's a blend of not overdoing it. So yeah, I'll it was a really, really different thing to do. But it can be very weather dependent in Scotland at that time of year. But it was beautiful. Amazing. Okay, well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This was an incredible conversation. So many nuggets. I am glad we finally got to make this happen after months and months of talking about it. So thank you for being here.

[00:48:35] If you've got something out of this, subscribe so you never miss an episode and send it to the founder in your life who's about to sign something. Until next time, stay curious.